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The Old Ferroresonant MAGNATEK Converters...

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
These dinosaurs were 30X as common as competitive converters and were a flawed design from the word go... OEM chose the BW Magnatek units because they were the least expensive of the lot. I came a MAGNATEK OEM in 1985 solely to access the 775-2 unit and later on the 955 swithmode 55 amp charger (neither were converters).

The original BW Magnatek converters "converted" incoming line voltage to "battery voltage" using a transformer and high value capacitors to achieve saturated field transformer regulation. The capacitors in theory allowed the large transformer's voltage to rise to battery voltage value. BW Magnatek's official specification for the battery charge (and rig's power supply) was 13.8 to 14.2 volts. The large and heavy transformer was a center-tapped design hence the transformer required the use of a pair of silicon TO-5 rectifiers mounted to a flat plate aluminum heat sink.

Here's where things get interesting (and sad). The converter was controlled by as yes/no DPDT 120 volt relay.

When shore power was not available the relay's contacts allowed BATTERY voltage throughput. Battery voltage flowed through the relay and onward to power the 12-volt accessories in the coach. Battery power direct except it had to flow through the relay.

Because the relay control (coil) was 120 volts, the presence or absence of 120 volt shore power determined what the converter was supposed to do.

When the relay saw 120 volts shore power, the whole picture changed. Battery power became unavailable to power the coach accessories. The converter via the relay contact switchover took it upon itself to have the capacitor controlled transformer develop ALL of the power for the coach's accessories. The coach accessories were transformer powered in their entirety.

What happened to the battery? How was it charged? A fifty watt bleed resistor tapped into the transformer coach power. it "robbed" as much as FOUR AMPERES of battery recharge potential from the capacitor regulated transformer circuit. You read right. Battery recharge was limited to four lousy amperes. And it did not matter if "shore power meant a power pedestal or a generator" the ceramic bleed resistor allowed four amperes battery charge rate (on a good day).

The problems with the BW Magnatek converter, knew no bounds. The converter was designed with low price in mind, and transformer power to coach accessories was dirtier than a Russian politician. An oscilloscope analysis showed the power to be tragic. This is one of the reasons ThinLite fluorescent lighting turned out to be near disastrous - the other being ThinLites marginal inverter circuit.

But it got worse. Ferroresonant voltage control relies utterly on the the stability of it's capacitors to be accurate to begin with and for them to retain accuracy in capacitance value as they age. Magnatek design utilized horribly substandard capacitors to begin with. The sloppy tolerances allowed a full .4 volt performance design variance according to Magnatek literature. In reality the variance was closer to .6 volt.

Worse...as the capacitors aged, voltage increased. I saw dozens and dozens of cases of "regulated" voltage in the 14.4 - 14.9 range.

Don't forget, the bleed resistor restricted amperage to around four, but when plugged in, the faulty capacitors allowed as much as 14.9 volts to appear at the battery terminals when rigs were left plugged into shore power. 24/7/365. 14.9 volts to the bypassed battery spelled disaster. And yes, when voltage climbed so did the voltage differential between the converter circuit and coach battery. Now amperage raised to 5.0 and burned out the ceramic resistor.

The "fix" obviously was to remove the converter and replace the capacitors. I did this in the 1980's and even back then, decent electrolytic capacitors cost 10-12 dollars each. Rig owners screamed foul.

13.8 is on the high end of acceptable maintenance battery float voltage at moderate air temperatures. But few of the Magnteks regulated at 13.8 volts. Most developed voltage in the 14.2 to 14.4 range when brand new, and then as they aged things went downhill from there. Voltage increase as capacitors aged.

When Magnatek was contacted by telephone their standard rhetoric was "Our converters make 13.8 volts".

After boiling a few thousand batteries dry, Magnatek introduced straight ferroresonant battery chargers. Their average 120vac, 60Hz output was 13.9 - 14.1, then Magnatek tried switch mode chargers that rendered 14.0 volts.

The end result is and was 13.8 volts got a bad rap. Not justifiable. But thousands of "victims" of so-called 13.8 volt regulation remembered only one thing. "The Magnatek converters were 13.8 volts and my batteries boiled dry". Magnatek faced hundreds of lawsuits including some proposed class action litigation.

As a result a dozen years ago, Magnatek divested itself of all peripheral manufacturing divisions. Sold them outright. Including RV converters and chargers.

And to this day, the legacy of "13.8 volts destroyed my batteries" lives on. Even newer charger and converter OEM's are skittish about 13.8 volts. While it is a tad high for my taste because of needless activity levels within a flooded battery, overcompensation to needlessly low battery float voltage levels causes other problems. Namely sulfation and stratification if left undisturbed for many months at a time.

Something to grimace about. A rig on generator power using the old Magnatek ferroresonant converter. The generator burps and surges to 70 Hz. What do you think happens to accessories in the rig when 70Hz zaps the converter? It's not pretty.

Just a little tidbit to chew on...
19 REPLIES 19

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
Chris, please keep your paperwork in pristine condition. Here is a partial listing of the Magnetek line, and to say the least it encompasses an avalanche of different designs and options.

- 7100 Series
- 8300 Series
- 7400 Series
- 5300 Series
- 6700 Series
- 4400 Series
- 6300 Series
- 3200 Series
- 6400/6600 Series

All of them could be considered a "Weapon Of Mass Destruction" with regards to proper float voltage, overcharging via higher than design voltage output.

Chris_Bryant
Explorer
Explorer
MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
The only thing I can think of is that Magnetek had dozens of designs. Adding a 100uf cap on the relay resistor unit output raised voltage .3 volt If it were purely linear it would not have done that nor should it have kept the same output voltage with wildly varying input AC voltages.

That's just the charging circuit, which was actually an option, but it's an add on to the purely linear converter. They used a couple of different designs for that option, but I have to dig out my paper manuals to tell the difference. I do remember they were a different option letter in the model number, and had very different capacities- one was 3 amp, the other around 10 or 15 amp (nominal, in a perfect world, during periods of porcine aviation :)).
-- Chris Bryant

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
The only thing I can think of is that Magnetek had dozens of designs. Adding a 100uf cap on the relay resistor unit output raised voltage .3 volt If it were purely linear it would not have done that nor should it have kept the same output voltage with wildly varying input AC voltages. The 7 series ferroresonant chargers indeed had a completely different design concept. The model noted in the PDF link has an SCR. The units I worked on definitely did not have an SCR. Also a linear transformer's output voltage varies via the load on the secondary windings.

Magnetek was a busy company. Too bad they got things more correct at the bitter end of their converter history.

Chris_Bryant
Explorer
Explorer
MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Magnatek must have manufactured a dozen different chargers based on ferroresonant control. Again, it's the converter model - AC breakers, fuses, relay and bleed resistor that caused most of the uproar. The cost of a capacitor swap out made repair costly and most owners did not opt for it.


But that model- ( 3200, 6300, 6400, etc.)with the relay and resistors is not a ferroresonant design. It's pure linear- non-regulated, with an added charging circuit. Put in higher voltage, get higher voltage out (on the main outputs).
The ferroresonant design is regulated by design, and is a single output.
The two are completely different, with different problems.
-- Chris Bryant

Gjac
Explorer III
Explorer III
Thanks for the history. When the capacitors degrade does that affect just the charging portion only or does it affect the converter portion also?

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
Performance wise, electrolytic capacitors will, over time, degrade. With the Magnetek units for every unit that grew old and lost voltage I found many many more that gained voltage. Fifty to one would not be an exaggeration. Folks here with more radio experience than I can tell you the mechanism in which electrolytic capacitors fail with more or less capacitance.

The 735-2, 750-2. and 775-2 were spec'd for 14.0 volts. But it wasn't this model of charger that caused all the misery. It was the relay switched-source converter with bleed resistor that was a miserable failure.

The 75 ferroresonant chargers were aimed at the high-end market: Vogue and Blue-Bird motorhomes for instance. The relay, bleeder resistor, was a favorite of mass-marketed Fleetwood, Terry, and other manufacturers.

Gjac, your 50-amp charger aged in the safe direction. Actually Magnatek used wildly different quality capacitors in their different models. The 7 series caps were not bad, but it was the legion of cheap relay and bleeder resistor converters that did all the damage and persuaded all but technicians that claimed charging specification of 13.8 volts, boiled batteries dry.

Later on Magnatek introduced their 952 series switched charger that was not ferroresonant based. I played briefly with one, and I remember it had a voltage set point below 14.0 volts. I do not know the history or the outcome of this charger. This was around the time that Todd introduced their 75 amp switched charger. BTW the relay bleeder models were enclosed by a fuse and breaker panel the latter chargers were the size of a loaf of bread and did not even have an on-off switch. I used 800 volt rated milspec caps when I played with the 7 series chargers. Lockheed surplus auctions were a gold mine.

Magnatek must have manufactured a dozen different chargers based on ferroresonant control. Again, it's the converter model - AC breakers, fuses, relay and bleed resistor that caused most of the uproar. The cost of a capacitor swap out made repair costly and most owners did not opt for it.

But to repeat this is how "13.8 volts" got a bad rap.

Gjac
Explorer III
Explorer III
Chris Bryant wrote:
Gjac wrote:
I have an 18 year old Magnatek 950 and a 40 amp portable B&D charger. I use the B&D to charge (2) 6v Sam's Club GC batteries quickly then float with the Magnatek for several days. Mine only puts out 13.2 volts once batteries are charged. Is this normal or is the lower voltage due to age? I don't remember if it ever got to 13.8 v when batteries were at 50% SOC.


Normally, low voltage on these means the capacitors on the resonant circuit are getting tired, but for maintenance I would probably leave it be. Note the capacitors are not that easy to find, as they are 660 volt (there is around 50-600 volts on the resonant circuit, so care should be used when servicing).
Thanks Chris. I guess at 13.2 v it would not be a "battery boiler". I find that a few days floating on this Magnatek adds several days to dry camping once the B&D says ful. It also seems quieter than it was 10 years ago.

Matt_Colie
Explorer
Explorer
In our group of antique motorhomes, all came equipped with a ferro-resonant converter/charger. As soon as a new owner shows up some of the first advice we offer is "Pitch the Buzz Box" and put in a good three or four stage unit.

Matt
Matt & Mary Colie
A sailor, his bride and their black dogs (one dear dog is waiting for us at the bridge) going to see some dry places that have Geocaches in a coach made the year we married.

Chris_Bryant
Explorer
Explorer
FWIW- I found an interesting writeup on ferroresonant design at http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_9/6.html.
This part was pretty good:
While being somewhat difficult to describe without going deep into electromagnetic theory, the ferroresonant transformer is a power transformer engineered to operate in a condition of persistent core saturation. That is, its iron core is โ€œstuffed fullโ€ of magnetic lines of flux for a large portion of the AC cycle so that variations in supply voltage (primary winding current) have little effect on the core's magnetic flux density, which means the secondary winding outputs a nearly constant voltage despite significant variations in supply (primary winding) voltage. Normally, core saturation in a transformer results in distortion of the sinewave shape, and the ferroresonant transformer is no exception. To combat this side effect, ferroresonant transformers have an auxiliary secondary winding paralleled with one or more capacitors, forming a resonant circuit tuned to the power supply frequency. This โ€œtank circuitโ€ serves as a filter to reject harmonics created by the core saturation, and provides the added benefit of storing energy in the form of AC oscillations, which is available for sustaining output winding voltage for brief periods of input voltage loss (milliseconds' worth of time, but certainly better than nothing).


They are talking more about using it in a UPS.
-- Chris Bryant

Chris_Bryant
Explorer
Explorer
Gjac wrote:
I have an 18 year old Magnatek 950 and a 40 amp portable B&D charger. I use the B&D to charge (2) 6v Sam's Club GC batteries quickly then float with the Magnatek for several days. Mine only puts out 13.2 volts once batteries are charged. Is this normal or is the lower voltage due to age? I don't remember if it ever got to 13.8 v when batteries were at 50% SOC.


Normally, low voltage on these means the capacitors on the resonant circuit are getting tired, but for maintenance I would probably leave it be. Note the capacitors are not that easy to find, as they are 660 volt (there is around 50-600 volts on the resonant circuit, so care should be used when servicing).
-- Chris Bryant

Gjac
Explorer III
Explorer III
I have an 18 year old Magnatek 950 and a 40 amp portable B&D charger. I use the B&D to charge (2) 6v Sam's Club GC batteries quickly then float with the Magnatek for several days. Mine only puts out 13.2 volts once batteries are charged. Is this normal or is the lower voltage due to age? I don't remember if it ever got to 13.8 v when batteries were at 50% SOC.

Chris_Bryant
Explorer
Explorer
MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

Follow the PDF link above if you wish and familiarize yourself with a Gran Mal design, the converter with bleed resistor, relay, and capacitors so inferior, three years of continuous use rendered a finish voltage of 14.4 - 14.5 Pretty impressive nightmare for a "13.8 volts float charger".


That link is to the linear converters, not the ferroresonant. Here's the schematic for the 775-2 converter:

The linear converters were adequate when the only electronics were maybe a 12 volt black and white tv and radio- the charge circuit was regulated and adjustable, but the main output was unregulated and unfiltered. They didn't do a great job of charging, but they really did as well as most purpose bult battery chargers of the day- smart chargers were still a ways off.
The ferroresonant models were near bullet proof, and each different model had a different design voltage- I saw voltages from 12.6 to 14 volts spec'd. you can see by the schematic there really wasn't much to go wrong.
-- Chris Bryant

wa8yxm
Explorer III
Explorer III
PDI's converters were unique for several reasons, for one thing they came up with a design that used something called Zero Voltage Switching, This means they had to have higher quality transformers in their earlier models (Cause they would burn out regular ones) this also means less Radio Frequency Interference from them because if you use zero point switching there is no zero to generate interference with.. But of course. That is what you get when you have folks who care about RFI on the design team.

I am only one degree removed from PDI on two different paths (or was then).
Home was where I park it. but alas the.
2005 Damon Intruder 377 Alas declared a total loss
after a semi "nicked" it. Still have the radios
Kenwood TS-2000, ICOM ID-5100, ID-51A+2, ID-880 REF030C most times

Snowman9000
Explorer
Explorer
Don't forget the noise. Our Magnatek hummed all the time.
Currently RV-less but not done yet.