Today's Response From Trojan

[MEXICOWANDERER]

GC 220 batteries
Antimony percentage FIVE POINT ZERO PERCENT has not changed in seventy years for cyclable 3 and six cell batteries








OFF TOPIC: Weight of flooded Rolls & Surrette GROUP 27 battery

54 lbs.

Something to compare to the competition

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Incidental voltage drop in the Borg is of zero consequence. Charge leads are too short. Differential values are too small and intrinsic ascending charging resistance allow for a volt drop limit in excess of what is in the Borg.

Factor

CEF vs E on a sliding scale E being voltage present within the battery.

Wattage differential is another key and it is crucial to not try and exceed practical limits. Also factored as an element of CEF equation. In short, amperage is absolutely constrained by voltage peak limit. A graph can be created showing ampacity in relationship to percentage of battery percentage full. The graph must be temperature compensated. A software program with A to D input would be most useful.

However calculate voltage drops using a differential percentage value. Thus a .2 drop at 14.6 volts is of less significance than the same expressed value at 12.2 volts. A Restrained Differential.

Excess energy is reflected in thermal gain. Degrees celcius per hour gain is yet another factorial that must be adhered to.

[mvas]

A pair of small "Remote Voltage Sensing" wires will solve any issues with voltage drop across the charging cables.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Stabbing lead posts with Oldaker test probe points using multiple meters for verification of data. The Borg has 6' x (2) 6 AWG leads and Mueller 100-ampere copper clips. Voltage drop obviously must be present and it averages .21 volts at full rated output @ 14.8 volts. Voltage drop doubles to .46 volt at full rated output. Ampere hour accumulation corroborates the values shown.

To extrapolate theory with real observation when the 3300 amp hour bank needs a crucial recharge I use the 50DN alternator plus the ferroresonant 220 ampere charger. 385+220 amperes, in excess of 600 amperes. 28.8 volts is the goal. Remember I am using 350 mcm cable and there are 4 leads.

Instant Vabs Max is only useful for a minority percentage of the entire charge exercise. The first thirty percent with my FLAs. Amps per volts subsequently is not linear. Reliance on stable Vabs Max with no automatic default is every bit as important, time wise to minimize run-time.

Do the batteries get warm? Yes of course. A 25 degree Delta T (differential) is not unusual.

The Borg was conceptualized for a maximum 200 ampere hour battery bank. To me, realizing greater output from a shoebox size charger was not rational. Being a receptacle connected device thought had to be given toward limitations of available input power.

If there is anything out there that can vie with the Borg's power and versatility (and utility) I am not aware of it. My defective body carries the charger with ease even though it has a 20 gauge steel enclosure.

Since the Lifelines are on standby I am going to substitute a CheapOwatt for the Borg. Set at 13.20 volts.

I may or may not build another Gigawatt and swap them for the original units.

A thermistor influenced Megawatt is a few rungs higher up the ladder. Amphenol mil-sprec gold socket and plug. Armored lead. With the wireless amp hour meter and voltage divider (pot) placed in series with a timer for float the project promises to be interesting.

[pnichols]

Based on my decades in the chip industry with $300K to $400K (at prices back then) high speed testers for all kinds of our company's high performce analog integrated circuits - including the "LMXXX" series of voltage regulators, my definition of "Warp Speed Charging" of RV batteries would be:

Use a power supply ("charger") for your RV battery bank that can maintain as long as necessary at the power supply's terminals the voltage for each charging stage that the battery manufacturer recommends for your particular battery bank REGARDLESS OF WHAT CURRENT THE BATTERY BANK WANTS TO DRAW at each charging stage.

This kind of charging sounds simple ... which it may be engineering-wise ... but it won't be cheap. This requires a power supply ("charger") with no voltage sag on it's terminals at any current draw up to and including the maximum safe current acceptance rate for any size and type of battery bank being charged.

For instance: The PD line of RV battery chargers comes with high recommedations from the RV community. However during it's 14.XX volt boost stage initial charging of say, a 440AH RV battery bank ... can you in fact actually measure on it's terminals 14.XX volts? I'm betting that the answer is "no". I'm betting that it's terminal voltage will have sagged down to some value (maybe well) below 14.XX volts during heavy current draw in it's boost stage when the batteries are at their lowest State Of Charge.

Notice my comments above say "on it's terminals" with respect to a charger's output voltage. But as a side note, of course one should use as large as possible cabling between the charger's terminals and the battery bank's terminals so that the battery bank's terminals see almost the same voltage as you measure on the ideal charger's terminals.

RV-world chargers that can do this probably are hard to find, may be large physically, and probably would be expensive. The ultra-expensive test systems from my work days had exactly this - power supplies that would produce at their output point exactly the voltage the computer program called for, regardless of how much current they had to deliver to do this.

Here's my real world mini-version of this situation which I'm betting is a common one: I use a good old not-recommended, fixed stage, Parallax 7345 converter to charge my RV's 230 AH battery bank. It's supposed to be able to deliver up to 45 amps. Well .... I never see my 50% depleted battery bank getting 45 amps from this charger. You know why? Because it's output voltage on it's terminals is nowhere near 13.8 volts when it's hooked up to my depleted battery bank. Now ... if this converter could actually maintain 13.8 volts on it's output terminals when charging my 230 AH low internal resistance battery bank .... boy, would my ammeter's readings change.

All of you who think you have a "14.XX" volt charger during your battery boost stage charging may want to confirm that this is the case by checking right on the charger's output terminals when it's dumping really large current into your RV's battery(ies).

I could be wrong on how good some of your chargers are, however.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

DMSO and ice bag worked on fingers.

Please keep in mind 99% of my comments about Megawatts, and time, are relevant when charging with a generator. Plugged into a power pedestal, who - cares?

I'll provide a more succinct definition of Warp Speed Charging.

Constant voltage.
Despite degree of discharge, battery bank instantly achieves charger voltage limit.

Got it?

Now for the caveats

The batteries must be at room temperature before Warp Speed Charging is done. The outside air temp (battery plate temp) must be at 80F or cooler before you do this.

In a multiple battery bank 15 minutes into the first-time Warp charge every battery must be checked to verify there are no bad batteries which would suffer overheating.

It takes an impressive charger in a multi-battery bank to achieve instant absorbsion voltage limit. For instance a paralleled pair of group flooded 29 batteries could accept 90 amperes. My pair of group 29 AGM batteries can accept TWO HUNDRED amperes.

All this is of little or no importance to a weekend warrior who could care less about generator run time.

Go off-grid and generator run-time minimization becomes the Holy Grail.

And please STOP with the solar hype OK? Solar is not for everyone. It is not good in my miniature rain forest. It is not good in the tall pines. it is not good for camping when full sun exposure means a 120F inside air temperature. If it can work for you, that is excellent, indeed.

Pedestal Power Princess Practitioners, should entertain little if any interest in Warp Speed Charging. Sort of like barbecuing in a Motel 6 room...

[Ralph_Cramden]

red31 wrote:


what is 'warp charging'?

That's what Capt Kirk wants when he calls Scotty for more speed, to which Scotty replies "I’ve giv’n her all she’s got captain, an’ I canna give her no more."

[JimK-NY]

Wow. Almost all of this actually makes sense and conveys ideas!!!!!

[MEXICOWANDERER]

All I am asking is this to be reacted with...en vitro...
Meaning within a living organism (hopefully).

I was asked on this forum via specific points of interest about a charger I built called The Borg. It's ugly and square (sort of) and has no redeeming values other than functionality as a battery charger. The specific questions appear under the thread dealing with Dropbox.

Please give it a look.

The way the questions were posed is a dead giveaway that genuine interest is present and not simple boredom with life in general.

And to answer a question within this thread in specific...

SULFATION of plates must occur or there exists no lead acid battery.
Constant "plating" and reversion of lead from solution is how a lead acid battery "works". Sulfation is inevitable.

It can (or not) be treated as a game. Making electro-chemical reactions a game rather than employment of two independent/interdependent disciplines makes management comprehensible. Strike that - more comprehensible to a layman.

Make no mistake about it, the best minds in the battery business get taxed to the limit dealing not with chemical formulas nor electrical equations - but with trying to explain and deal with the abstract effects (not causes) of electro chemical process. Scribbling formulas does not cut it.

So years ago on this forum I decided to attempt to share - any way you put it, it meant inform and educate interested (emphasis on that last word) individuals.

I see with satisfaction that many readers have gleaned information - really important abstracts. They actually use it. Seeing this - it is my reward.

The battery industry is consumer driven. It is also "self-regulating" via the Battery Council international - a "Company Union" so to speak...

Because of the abstract nature of electro-chemical process, it leaves itself wide open to deception (not just to the consumer but to professionals who are convinced they know what they are doing). Enter barely controlled mayhem and disinformation.

I made a good living untying disinformation knots for vendors and OEM alike. But making a living providing information is like that television marketing channel with the disappearing text crawler at the bottom of the screen. Change channels or turn the TV off - add new viewers or lose old ones, and accumulated information disappears. Threads in this forum are like that. Keep it in mind. It can be discouraging. I am not computer generated. Every response takes time and energy. I can only HOPE my responses here are absorbed and retained.

Pure concentrated information is boring. Try reading a few pages of battery information at Battery University Dot Com. It does not attempt to cover abstracts. My issuing of acerbic pronouncements would be met here with derision and deserved ridicule. I have to make this stuff comprehensible and whenever possible "more fun".

Enter the semi-interested browser who happens across a segment - an episode if you will of one of my posts or responses. Remember, the crawler has long gone off the screen. Retrieval is impossible. I had to erect and comply with a set of filters: Is the respondor serious or a Readers Digest "entertain me" seeker of passing time? How would you do this?

Simple complaints of "This makes no sense. This is worthless" would get a crack across the knuckles from my physics professor. Someone is looking for instant gratification of amusement or entertainment. Wheat vs chaff. The proof comes in the form of a followup question or lack of. If someone does not expend the energy to ask a question then they are filtered out. "Next!" Complain all they wish, without expending a half minute on the keyboard these folks have filtered themselves out. Conclusive declarations are powerful wampum.

Enigmatic expressions are often inserted by me in an attempt to pre-ignite a person's abstract information absorbsion center. Put on the thinking cap time.

Reader's Digest style "Pander to Me" thread browsers naturally are "triggered" by enigmatic expressions. Another filter. A conclusive declaration means success in filtering. A question however means exactly the opposite. Time for me to answer a legitimate question.

The easiest thing in my world is to browse online and select what interests me. What is of no interest is immediately discarded and forgotten about with a "click". This is true of web sites, white papers, forum threads, and individual responses.

I make fun of people who run around in general life making conclusive declarations to others: "Don't Buy That! Don't Read That!" Libraries, Restaurants, Grocery Stores, etc. If they make conclusive declarations in actuality, in the glowing non presence of anonymity, you can bet they do it with every other facet of their life. I run away from individuals like that in real life. A mental "click NEXT!" escape back to reality soon follows.

I do not intend to ever re-write this. Once is enough and now comes a good soaking of my fingers with DMSO.


BTW "TROJAN". World War II

Soviet barbs (Declarative Conuclusions) about everything USA goods donated to the USSR was met with the following.

A pallet of cases. Inside the palletized cartons were stacks of condoms. They were in excess of a foot in length.

Stamped on the cartons was the notation: MEDIUM

[brulaz]

JimK-NY wrote:

...
I also do not understand why clear English is not acceptable. Gibberish does not help "teach/guide/inform/share".

Obviously clear english IS acceptable. And I applaud your attempts to use it, despite the hyperbole.

But also acceptable are cryptic metaphors and entertaining, stream-of-consciousness rants from someone who can be very helpful.

Acceptable to me at least. Ultimately it's the Wizard who decides.

[JimK-NY]

red31 wrote:
"If they are merely browsing they will seek no specific answer"
Mex method of (syn for teach/guide/inform/share ...) is usually not spoon feeding.

Mex, what is 'warp charging'?
Aware of gen charging to limit fuel, same?

I think I was able to translate this one. This refers to a change in charging parameters recommended by Trojan. Warp equals changed or altered.

I also do not understand why clear English is not acceptable. Gibberish does not help "teach/guide/inform/share".

[red31]

"If they are merely browsing they will seek no specific answer"
Mex method of (syn for teach/guide/inform/share ...) is usually not spoon feeding.

Mex, what is 'warp charging'?
Aware of gen charging to limit fuel, same?

[pnichols]

David (the OP) usually writes in (often obscure) metaphors. However, he does write very clearly at times. How he makes his decisions as to when to use which style is a mystery.

I don't spend time trying to figure the metaphors out.

[JimK-NY]

brulaz wrote:


....If you find them too difficult, ask a question or ignore them but please don't be picky and pedantic like above. ......

I did ask questions. I was looking for some sort of understanding or explanation of a statement that otherwise did not seem to have any continuity of thought. Perhaps if I could understand a piece, then more meaning would be evident. As written I can make little or no sense of any of these comments. The only reason I am bothering to try to understand, is the hope that there is some useful information to be gleaned from this.

[joshuajim]

Mex..., arthritis? It's time to move on to voice recognition software. Saves the fingers (and a lot of time).