Could have killed us:We had Monroe shock absorbers installed on our TT care of our dealer when we got it new in April of 2014. The dealer insisted they take care of it so they sent it down the street to a suspension shop.I handed over the shocks, lower mounting brackets, bolts and flat bar for the upper mounting brackets. All they had to do was the install and some welding. I made up a very detailed drawing showing EXACTLY how I wanted it installed. I showed the upper brackets to have 45 degree chamfers for max. weld penetration onto the beam surfaces. Seems like they totally ignored the drawing. With out going into a lot of details, they really botched the work and I went back TWICE again to try and get it taken care of but they refused in the end. The dealer (who we paid directly for the work) refused to have anything to do with it. So from the beginning I was NOT happy.We just finished a 2500 mile trip through the Oregon Cascades from the Or/Wa border south into Ca. and on into Reno. Drove on a lot of highway sections with many twists and turns at speeds up to 60-65 mph. Numerous sheer drop-offs on one side too. Many downhill runs at up to 9% grade often with corners at the bottom to get around. A blowout on a tire could have been potentially deadly if it happened at 60+ mph, on a steep downhill descent, round a corner. Add a sheer drop-off and it gives me chills.Got back on Friday and today I was looking underneath to check that all was okay. It's not. The upper mount from one of the shocks came clear off the I-beam it was welded to (or supposed to be welded to) - photo 1. The shock was obviously flopping around as the flared edge at the bottom of the upper half of the shock tube was rubbing against the tire and cut a sharp groove in the tire. Tire is now history. Photo 2 shows how the bracket is supposed to be positioned. I had specified that the 3" x 3/16" plate be welded to the top and bottom flanges of the beam. I can only surmise this happened closer to home.I also wonder if the shock did not stay in the upright position and was flopping around what might have happened. Or if a blowout happened and the shock was flying around whacking things. Maybe might have been a lot of damage from flying rubber and other debris.In looking closer at the broken bracket (last photo), there is NO weld material at all on the flange of the I-beam. They just did a butt joint with a surface weld instead of a chamfer that I asked for. Two of the other brackets have failed lower welds and I assume the 4th is no good with close inspection and maybe some dye.I just don't don't know what to say at this point. Just glad we made it home okay. I even made mention of the shop in a post in another thread yesterday about how bad they were.Will be interesting to see what the dealer says. It has nothing to do with the manufacturer, KZ (we have a 2 year warranty). We paid the dealer for the work and they insisted on the particular shop. We did not hire the suspension shop. It's one of those things that could even end up in court I suppose. I am totally pi**ed. I could even have done this myself with my MIG welder and done a good job or I know a mobile welder that could have done it too.Maybe I'll just take up flying a small plane instead of RV-ing. Safer, cheaper and less aggravation.

When somone is supposed to do a critical weld I insistALLSTATE 275Be used. Nothing else. Stick reverse DC rod.200,000 PSI and it's easy to use.

Sounds like you wanted to upgrade the suspension system. So you handed them shocks and some drawing for what they need to do. But, why? What was wrong with the stock suspension system? Had you left it alone, you would not be in this mess.

I'm confused. Was this a repair on a new TT? Or was was this an owner modification to a new TT that was supposed to work? If this was an owner mod probably a good thing you didn't inform yor insurance co. I tried to modify a MH suspension back in the 80s. A spring co. wouldn't even touch the problem. Too much liability involved.

:hThat plate was not needed.You could have totally avoided that mess if you would have had the shock directly mounted to the frame.I would have drilled the frame, added a plate on both sides of the frame to add some reinforcement for the hole. Then you could have simply bolted the shock directly to the frame (with a couple of spacers to hold the shock away from the frame).Welding can actually alter the strength of the steel anyways so a hole with added reinforcement would not have caused any problems for strength..That setup was doomed to failure since it relied strictly on the top and bottom welds on one side.. It really needed a side gusset(s) to add more welding surface..

WyoTraveler wrote:I'm confused. Was this a repair on a new TT? Or was was this an owner modification to a new TT that was supposed to work? If this was an owner mod probably a good thing you didn't inform yor insurance co. I tried to modify a MH suspension back in the 80s. A spring co. wouldn't even touch the problem. Too much liability involved.It's an upgrade that is often done to travel trailers when they aren't available as an option. We had planned to do this in advance of getting this particular TT and had done lots of research on what to do. I have an engineering background and I thoroughly research anything before I proceed with it. We had no option but to go through the dealer to the shocks added because it was a brand new TT and we didn't want to risk having the warranty voided if we ever had a frame issue (and we have in the past), otherwise I would have taken care of it myself. Have done some pretty complex/difficult mods and in comparison, adding shocks is very straightforward.There's a number of aftermarket retrofit kits available, Mor-Ryde, Lippert and another I've forgotten the name of as well as the Monroe except their brackets are NLA. I had a set of lower brackets made up from a copy of some Monroe ones I already had (different axle dia.) and upper brackets are typically made up to suit the particular trailer frame you have. Nothing here is a "homemade" setup if that was the question.I can't see this affecting insurance. We have the best policy available in Canada and our agent is a friend of DW's and has seen all the mods I've done and says it is perfectly okay.Adding shocks to a travel trailer significantly improves ride and handling. I would never own another TT without them after experiencing the difference.Anyway, my point of posting this is how bad workmanship can be by a shop in the business of doing this stuff on a daily basis and what the consequences are if not done right.

Upper shock mount broke clear off. Flippin' unbelievable!

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Sep 28, 2015
When somone is supposed to do a critical weld I insist
ALLSTATE 275
Be used. Nothing else. Stick reverse DC rod.
200,000 PSI and it's easy to use.
ugh
Explorer
Sep 28, 2015
Sounds like you wanted to upgrade the suspension system. So you handed them shocks and some drawing for what they need to do. But, why? What was wrong with the stock suspension system? Had you left it alone, you would not be in this mess.
WyoTraveler
Explorer
Sep 28, 2015
I'm confused. Was this a repair on a new TT? Or was was this an owner modification to a new TT that was supposed to work? If this was an owner mod probably a good thing you didn't inform yor insurance co. I tried to modify a MH suspension back in the 80s. A spring co. wouldn't even touch the problem. Too much liability involved.
Gdetrailer
Explorer III
Sep 28, 2015
:h

That plate was not needed.

You could have totally avoided that mess if you would have had the shock directly mounted to the frame.

I would have drilled the frame, added a plate on both sides of the frame to add some reinforcement for the hole. Then you could have simply bolted the shock directly to the frame (with a couple of spacers to hold the shock away from the frame).

Welding can actually alter the strength of the steel anyways so a hole with added reinforcement would not have caused any problems for strength..

That setup was doomed to failure since it relied strictly on the top and bottom welds on one side.. It really needed a side gusset(s) to add more welding surface..
myredracer
Explorer II
Sep 28, 2015
WyoTraveler wrote:
I'm confused. Was this a repair on a new TT? Or was was this an owner modification to a new TT that was supposed to work? If this was an owner mod probably a good thing you didn't inform yor insurance co. I tried to modify a MH suspension back in the 80s. A spring co. wouldn't even touch the problem. Too much liability involved.

It's an upgrade that is often done to travel trailers when they aren't available as an option. We had planned to do this in advance of getting this particular TT and had done lots of research on what to do. I have an engineering background and I thoroughly research anything before I proceed with it. We had no option but to go through the dealer to the shocks added because it was a brand new TT and we didn't want to risk having the warranty voided if we ever had a frame issue (and we have in the past), otherwise I would have taken care of it myself. Have done some pretty complex/difficult mods and in comparison, adding shocks is very straightforward.

There's a number of aftermarket retrofit kits available, Mor-Ryde, Lippert and another I've forgotten the name of as well as the Monroe except their brackets are NLA. I had a set of lower brackets made up from a copy of some Monroe ones I already had (different axle dia.) and upper brackets are typically made up to suit the particular trailer frame you have. Nothing here is a "homemade" setup if that was the question.

I can't see this affecting insurance. We have the best policy available in Canada and our agent is a friend of DW's and has seen all the mods I've done and says it is perfectly okay.

Adding shocks to a travel trailer significantly improves ride and handling. I would never own another TT without them after experiencing the difference.

Anyway, my point of posting this is how bad workmanship can be by a shop in the business of doing this stuff on a daily basis and what the consequences are if not done right.
myredracer
Explorer II
Sep 28, 2015
Gdetrailer wrote:
:h

That plate was not needed.

You could have totally avoided that mess if you would have had the shock directly mounted to the frame.

I would have drilled the frame, added a plate on both sides of the frame to add some reinforcement for the hole. Then you could have simply bolted the shock directly to the frame (with a couple of spacers to hold the shock away from the frame).

Welding can actually alter the strength of the steel anyways so a hole with added reinforcement would not have caused any problems for strength..

That setup was doomed to failure since it relied strictly on the top and bottom welds on one side.. It really needed a side gusset(s) to add more welding surface..

I don't see how the shock could have been mounted to the frame. I wanted a 3" wide plate welded to the top and bottom of the flanges, just like Lippert does at the factory for some frames to strengthen it above spring hangers. Seemed like the least intrusive was to do it. Why would welding to the frame be an issue when it's welded all over the place at the factory and the welds would be (well, should have been) at only the outer flanges of the I-beams. The shop decided on their own to weld to the sides of the beam webs and was not happy about it. The dealer was also supposed to have sent the factory a copy of my drawing for approval.

There were also obstructions to deal with like the slide out shaft which forced the mounting points to be as low as they are (just above the lower flange).

If they had chamefered the ends of the plates, there would have been a much better weld. The lower flange didn't even get hot enough to melt the steel at all.
WyoTraveler
Explorer
Sep 28, 2015
myredracer wrote:
WyoTraveler wrote:
I'm confused. Was this a repair on a new TT? Or was was this an owner modification to a new TT that was supposed to work? If this was an owner mod probably a good thing you didn't inform yor insurance co. I tried to modify a MH suspension back in the 80s. A spring co. wouldn't even touch the problem. Too much liability involved.

It's an upgrade that is often done to travel trailers when they aren't available as an option. We had planned to do this in advance of getting this particular TT and had done lots of research on what to do. I have an engineering background and I thoroughly research anything before I proceed with it. We had no option but to go through the dealer to the shocks added because it was a brand new TT and we didn't want to risk having the warranty voided if we ever had a frame issue (and we have in the past), otherwise I would have taken care of it myself. Have done some pretty complex/difficult mods and in comparison, adding shocks is very straightforward.

There's a number of aftermarket retrofit kits available, Mor-Ryde, Lippert and another I've forgotten the name of as well as the Monroe except their brackets are NLA. I had a set of lower brackets made up from a copy of some Monroe ones I already had (different axle dia.) and upper brackets are typically made up to suit the particular trailer frame you have. Nothing here is a "homemade" setup if that was the question.

I can't see this affecting insurance. We have the best policy available in Canada and our agent is a friend of DW's and has seen all the mods I've done and says it is perfectly okay.

Adding shocks to a travel trailer significantly improves ride and handling. I would never own another TT without them after experiencing the difference.

Anyway, my point of posting this is how bad workmanship can be by a shop in the business of doing this stuff on a daily basis and what the consequences are if not done right.

Well it was in 1989 when my Moryde rubber springs were failing on my 1989 Pace Arrow. I went to Long Beach Spring in Long Beach, CA. I needed a good replacement. No go. Sell it. Let it be someone elses problem. Too much liability in case of insurance claims and accidents. Bottom line I sold the MH. Modifying gets to be serious liability. I don't doubt your ability or education. Going through the court system may not make it worth while. I worked within the system. I understood what I was being told. Being right doesn't always mean a court victory. That is why I asked if your insurance co knew you modified the frame. Some people go years with no problems. A few end up in court and it is a tough expensive lesson. JMHO.
westend
Explorer
Sep 28, 2015
Myred,
You sure have been having the luck, lately (and not all of it good). Hope your bearing work turns out better.
I have shocks on my old rig, the first I've owned that had them. They really keep everything tamed when out on the road. I can see the reasoning to add them.

I learned to keep my lips still when welding is discussed. I opened my mouth once and "I can weld" came out. Within 6 months I had my own little area with crane and welders set up, fabbing all of the rudders needed for our small river towboat fleet.

For your situation, I would guess the task of the shock mounts fell into the lap of someone unaccustomed to the work and not familiar with the forces involved. There is a lot that can be done to make sure that plate never moves. I'd suggest to put your engineering hat back on and make a design that insures longevity.

Good luck with your trailer!
CJW8
Explorer
Sep 28, 2015
At least with flying, you'd be reasonably assured when people worked on your aircraft, they'd be certified to do so. Trailer frame welders, not so much. I see nothing wrong with your design as described. I'd only suggest a cylindrical spacer around the bolt between the 3" plate and the main frame web. That way when all bolted up tight, some of the stress would be transferred to the frame web instead of all of the stress being on the 3" plate.
myredracer
Explorer II
Sep 28, 2015
CJW8 wrote:
At least with flying, you'd be reasonably assured when people worked on your aircraft, they'd be certified to do so. Trailer frame welders, not so much. I see nothing wrong with your design as described. I'd only suggest a cylindrical spacer around the bolt between the 3" plate and the main frame web. That way when all bolted up tight, some of the stress would be transferred to the frame web instead of all of the stress being on the 3" plate.

That is a good idea. Only problem might be is that we have an enclosed underbelly and it's really hard in spots to get fingers in there. I think now that I have to do something, I will do something stronger. I might even just get a local frame & axle shop I know that does excellent work to take care of it (it's only a bunch more $$ down the hole).

I'm not a trained welder, but how hard can it be to properly weld two pieces of 3/16" mild steel together? I learned how to do basic MIG and gas welding from restoring and modifying vintage cars and while it may not look the prettiest, I know it's important to get correct penetration. But a weld not sticking to the base metal piece (the I-beam flange) at all and on a critical suspension component??