35,000 lb +, GVW for pick ups

[ACZL]

I posted a reply on another thread about this and afterwards thought that it wasn't fitting to take away from OP's thread about his truck which he is fondly proud of and rightfully so. So to that, I'm manning up to state a bit better what I was referring to and not in any way want to detract from OP's post.

What was mentioned was the ability of today's picks being capable of having a combo weight of 35,000- 40,000 if set up properly. My reply was that it's a scary thought that one could tow that much w/ a pick up and not have a CDL. I went onto say too about folks buying 45' diesel MH weighing about the same and have air brakes and not have a CDL or air brake endorsement like CDL holders need.

Folks that drive for commerce need a CDL- true. They are use to that kind of weight and know what to expect and handle the weight, size and then some. And yes, some CDL driver's should not have a CDL or be driving commercially. My point is that people who don't tow real heavy loads that the truck is capable of often can be of a great hazard just due to the inherit size and weight. Same w/ the MH driver's. Now that's not saying all are not able to do so safely. As a whole though, this is a scary thought.

Does not have to just RV's. Plenty of people just driving cars that shouldn't be.

My point overall is that if MFR's are going higher and higher w/ their GVW's, folks wanting to buy the big MH's, they too should possess a CDL just based on size and weight despite being a private/non commerce vehicle. We all know enough to keep alert w/ others around us, but we RV'ers are held to a bit higher standard (but below semis) than the ave Joe. It's just plain nuts that someone can buy "X" vehicle and "have at it" w/o any kind of further requirements needed. I cannot ride a motorcycle till I get/pass the needed credentials, so what makes buying a pick up w/ 35K+ GVW or a 45' MH any different?

In closing, I want to apologize to the OP for going sideways on his post. Uncalled for. What are folks take on this subject of high GVW's, size, weight, CDL's and such?

[Thunderbolt]

Not in Minnesota. If you are hauling more than 8 people for a business you have to have a CDL passenger on your standard drivers license.I am well aware of the 26,000 pound rule because I have a CDL. If you are driving a bus with 15 or more people you need a class B CDL as well as the passenger endorsement. If you are operating a vehicle for a business that carries passengers you need a CDL passenger endorsement on your standard license if you are carrying 8 or more people in Minnesota. I also work for the Mn Department of Transportation.

Jarlaxle wrote:

Thunderbolt wrote:
Mn requires a class c license and a CDL passenger endorsement for passengers if you have more than 8 people. When you are saying 15 people then you need a class B CDL with passenger endorsement.

The class you need has nothing to do with number of seats and everything to do with GVWR. Under 26,000lbs, it's class C. Over 26,000lbs, it's class B.

[Jarlaxle]

Thunderbolt wrote:
Mn requires a class c license and a CDL passenger endorsement for passengers if you have more than 8 people. When you are saying 15 people then you need a class B CDL with passenger endorsement.

The class you need has nothing to do with number of seats and everything to do with GVWR. Under 26,000lbs, it's class C. Over 26,000lbs, it's class B.

[Thunderbolt]

As far as needing a CDL for Rver's I have never really seen many issues with how they drive except overloaded. However today driving through a construction zone I had a small suv weaving all over. I get up next to it and the lady was eating a bowl of cereal. Bowl in one hand spoon in the other. Those are the drivers that scare me.

[hawkeye-08]

I'm not really for more government, but I think some of the RV dealers could offer some training classes (starting with their own sales reps) to teach basic skills for the RVs, include things like air brakes for those big DPs, turning radius, backing, safety checks, etc.

A coworker friend bought a big DP a few years back, both him and his wife took classes on driving it, backing up, connecting TOAD, etc . He said they would have had serious issues had they not taken the classes. They traveled all over the US, including both coasts and Alaska before selling it and getting bumper pull trailer.

[ronharmless]

So many solutions for a problem that doesn't exist. Y'all must be from the gobberment and are here to help.

[talonhead]

CT got rid of the Non-Commercial A&B. So GVWR 26K or trailer 10k (not RV) or 15k RV, so at or above the marks, you need a CDL. With the recent "Upgrades" at CT DMV, (the results have made the national news), less info is available on-line, and trying to get hold of a live person via phone is nearly impossible. It's the odd day when the lines aren't outside the building.
The non-RV trailer is a national issue, so bad that manufacturers are marking some models 9990#.
I was thinking of upgrading to a larger 5er or TH to full time if the company wants to send me on a 18-24+ month away job. Although, it might be worth it to change residency (depending on state) and relicense there.

[Thunderbolt]

Mn requires a class c license and a CDL passenger endorsement for passengers if you have more than 8 people. When you are saying 15 people then you need a class B CDL with passenger endorsement.

MNGeeks61 wrote:

Jarlaxle wrote:

MNGeeks61 wrote:
Already in place, Minnesota for example requires you to have a class B license to drive a single-unit vehicle over 26,000 pounds.

I don't see your point. I used to tow a 9,000 pound trailer with a 5500 pound truck. Are you saying that 15,000 lbs is somehow less deadly than 30-40,000 pounds? Sure, it'll take longer to stop.

How bout those shuttle buses you see coming from the airport? Bet they don't require a special license (they do not in MN) and they weigh anywhere from 12,000 to 19,000 pounds, add all those poor passengers and you're up to 20,000 pounds without a special license too. Is that more scary/deadly than an RV?

Any vehicle with more than 15 seats requires a CDL (class C for <26K, class B >26K) with passenger endorsement. Yes, I needed my CDL to drive an E350 with 16 seats!

As I stated earlier, I was referring to Minnesota statutes. I'm sure it varies by state, but it's any vehicle used to carry 15 or more passengers (excluding the driver, which makes 16).

So, no, you do NOT need a CDL to operate a small shuttle bus, which, at this point, is kind of irrelevant to the original question of RV'ers being required to have one, but I was attempting to make a point about "safety".

When do I need a Minnesota CDL instead of my regular Minnesota Drivers License?

3. A vehicle used to . . .(a.) carry 15 or more passengers (excluding the driver), or (b.) carry (15) or less people (including the driver) when carrying children to or from school and home regularly for compensation.

[Community Alumni]

Texas already has a system setup with our non commercial Class B and Class A licenses. The process is similar to getting a regular license. You take a basic written test then you show up with your rig for the driving portion. It's just a basic driving test to show you know how to control the vehicle or combo correctly and safely.

[Bedlam]

I go round and round in my head whether this is a good idea or not. When I was growing up, we had motorcycle size classes within our endorsement based on the size motorcycle with which you completed the practical. The written was the same but the classes broke down to under 150cc, under 500cc and unlimited. The reasoning was that someone would pass the test on a scooter and then hop on a larger bike that they could not control. Although I see some benefit to this method with first time drivers, I believe even experienced scooter drivers can apply what they know and go to larger bikes.

Perhaps a beginner's permit with restrictions for the first two years would be a better option. Until you have no violations or accidents during that length time (a clean 2-year period), you do not get an unrestricted license. If you start racking up points on your license (because you cannot handle this new class of vehicle), you have the choice to pay for formal training (any violations in the next two years would revoke your endorsement) or give up the privilege of this endorsement.

I carry endorsements on my license for unlimited motorcycle displacement with additional sidecar or trike operation. We do not have an endorsement for RV's over a set weight or length, although I do feel we should have towing endorsement that would cover anything you hitch to your vehicle (FW, BP or flat tow).

[MNGeeks61]

Jarlaxle wrote:

MNGeeks61 wrote:
Already in place, Minnesota for example requires you to have a class B license to drive a single-unit vehicle over 26,000 pounds.

I don't see your point. I used to tow a 9,000 pound trailer with a 5500 pound truck. Are you saying that 15,000 lbs is somehow less deadly than 30-40,000 pounds? Sure, it'll take longer to stop.

How bout those shuttle buses you see coming from the airport? Bet they don't require a special license (they do not in MN) and they weigh anywhere from 12,000 to 19,000 pounds, add all those poor passengers and you're up to 20,000 pounds without a special license too. Is that more scary/deadly than an RV?

Any vehicle with more than 15 seats requires a CDL (class C for <26K, class B >26K) with passenger endorsement. Yes, I needed my CDL to drive an E350 with 16 seats!

As I stated earlier, I was referring to Minnesota statutes. I'm sure it varies by state, but it's any vehicle used to carry 15 or more passengers (excluding the driver, which makes 16).

So, no, you do NOT need a CDL to operate a small shuttle bus, which, at this point, is kind of irrelevant to the original question of RV'ers being required to have one, but I was attempting to make a point about "safety".

When do I need a Minnesota CDL instead of my regular Minnesota Drivers License?

3. A vehicle used to . . .(a.) carry 15 or more passengers (excluding the driver), or (b.) carry (15) or less people (including the driver) when carrying children to or from school and home regularly for compensation.

[ksss]

I have a Class A CDL and must comply with the DOT rules and regs and it sucks, not doubt. I am not a more gov. kind of guy, that I can assure you, but this issue needs to be addressed.

With the continued increased capacity of these new HD pickups and the continued increase in the sizes of RVs, you are putting people with zero experience in trailering, in control of a vehicle way beyond their capability.
Personally I think at a certain weight or length or combo of both, it should require an additional endorsement, like a motorcycle license requires.

I don't worry about the bleed over from commercial to private. They will not require RVs to comply with commercial driving restrictions, Ports of entry could not handle that kind of volume in 100 years nor to they want to.

However, drivers should have at least a minimal amount of formal training before hooking up to 43' toyhauler. A day in the class room and a day or two practicing maneuvering a trailer is not a bad thing. Living close to Yellowstone, I see some crazy RV wrecks. Having the ability to buy a huge trailer or RV does not automatically assume that you can actually drive it safely.

[JIMNLIN]

grit dog wrote:
Page 68454??
Lol!
No doc that long worth the paper it's printerd on, or the RAM it takes to DL it!

Actually this particular final rules NPRM document runs from page 68442 to 68466 .
Pages before and after will be a different NPRM document.
The NPRM is important ...not the number of pages.

[Grit_dog]

rhagfo wrote:

jmtandem wrote:

I bet if someone done the research on number of accidents per capita of RV owners verses semi drivers with CDLs I bet the numbers would sway in favor of the RV owners having less accidents. Probably less deadly accidents also.

Accident statistics don't favor semi 18 wheeler drivers. Their contention is that they are on the road daily so the exposure to having an accident is higher. They also refer to poor car drivers putting them in accident situations (cutting the truck off, stopping distances, changing lanes without notice, etc). Yet, semi drivers also are the CDL drivers with the 'enhanced' license.

For the most part RV drivers tend to be 'more occasional' drivers of the RV, are typically not in as big as a hurry to get somewhere, and often are more careful driving the RV than their car.

It would be interesting to compare the accident stats in states without any need for an enhanced license to tow over 10,0000 pounds (or whatever that magic number really is) or drive a diesel pusher that weighs more than 26,000 pounds against the same accident data in states that do require the enhanced licenses and see if the enhanced license changes the statistics. I suspect there is no statistical difference between that data.

With modern tow vehicles with far better suspension, brakes and power than twenty years ago towing a trailer that weighs 9950 pounds or 10,050 pounds there is probably no difference in performance. The 10,000 pounds is just a number, not really a safety marker with modern tow vehicles.

I would think that they would favor them on Miles driven, per accident. I would think that RV accidents per miles driven would be surprising higher than you would think.

One other factor is those that either have a small daily commuter, car and a 350/3500 DRW, with 42' 5er as a RV, the differences in driving the two are huge. Then there are those that daily drive their 350/3500 DRW tow vehicle, and have a better idea of the overall size of vehicle.

The is nothing more telling than watching one that has little idea of the size and width of their going over a narrow bridge, still at least a 10' lane and they have their left tires over the center line by a foot.

Spot on, but by the same token, harder to have an accident when your blue hair ing it along at 51mph with all day to get halfway there vs the truck driver fighting the log book, stupid RV ers AND the general traveling public, just to put food on the table and get home that night!
Considering semis outnumber RVs on the road on average every day of the year by a largeeee margin, I still see less bonehead moves by truckers than Griswolds cousin eddy piloting the land yacht to the next Wally World parking lot!

[Grit_dog]

JIMNLIN wrote:
Your right according to this from NHTSA;

NPRM (DOT Docket No. NHTSA-2007-0040)
RIN 2127-AJ57

page 68454


(snipped for length)
NHTSA's Office of Vehicle
Safety Compliance (OVSC) enforces current NHTSA regulations and will
enforce the requirements in this final rule when it becomes effective.
We note that actual RV crash data specific to crashes where an
overloaded RV is a contributing factor are rare.

Page 68454??
Lol!
No doc that long worth the paper it's printerd on, or the RAM it takes to DL it!