Another Hitch Set Up Question

[hohenwald48]

I've read most everything regarding setting up a WDH and think I have a pretty good handle on the concepts. However, on my setup I have the hitch ball angle tilted back a good bit(6 washers), I crank the bars (#1,000) so they are level with the ground and with the trailer tongue. In that position the front axle of the TV has exactly the same weight on it as it does when not hitched and the rear axle has about #950 more than when unhitched. The trailer axles weigh #6900.

It seems that there should be around #450 more on the front axle when hitched than when unhitched. The TV front and rear axles have exactly the same weights on them when unhitched so it seems logical they should have the same weights when hitched. To accomplish that I would have to take another link or two on the chain which will result in the bars being angled up toward the trailer instead of parallel to the ground and tongue. I'm not sure that would transfer #450 more to the front of the TV but it would surely transfer something up there.

I'm not over weight on anything for the trailer or for the TV and the TV and trailer sit perfectly level when hitched and fender measurements are the same hitched or unhitched. I tow with a Nissan Armada and it has an auto leveling air suspension system that makes setting up using fender measurements kind of difficult. I can stick an extra #1500 in the rear of the TV and it will sit perfectly level due the auto level system. I can remove that same #1500 and it will self adjust to be perfectly level again. I can't set things up with the auto level fuse removed because then the rear of the TV sits on the TV axle stops even without the trailer connected.

Any thoughts

[Need-A-Vacation]

In case you are loaded a little different, I would suggest to go ahead and weigh the 3 times so you get a little more accurate weights.

Sounds like you are close to the rear axle rating, just watch what all you load up.

Good luck!

[hohenwald48]

Rear axle rating is #4300. Front axle rating is #3400.

Next trip we take I'll stop and get the hitched weights with the bars unlatched. Sounds like that should give me what I need. Thanks.

[Need-A-Vacation]

As far as the wd bars being parallel with the trailer frame, what style wdh do you have, round bar or trunnion? As mentioned, the round bar system can point up slightly (or down slightly) as long as there is clearance for the bars so they don't hit the trailer frame. BUT if you have a trunnion system you generaly need the bars to be angled down to clear the trailer frame, especially the lug that goes into the hitch head. It could hit the frame in an extremely tight turn.

hohenwald48 wrote:
It would be nice to get an unhitched weight for the TT axles and tongue but I don't know if the CAT scale folks would want me to take the time to un-hitch and re-hitch on their scales. I might ask them sometime.

I suppose I could remove the spring bars and everything and just pull on the scale with the ball. That would speed up the hitch/unhitch process and keep me from tying up the scale too long.

Weigh your rig 3 times to figure all the weights.
1: Truck and trailer ready to roll down the road with the wd bars latched up.
2: Truck and trailer, but with the wd bars unlatched. Place them in the back of the truck.
3: Truck only. Leave the wdh head in and the bars in the bck of the truck.

This way you can figure your tw along with all the other weights.

take #2 fa+ra, and then subtract #3 (fa+ra) (total scale weight: no trailer). This is your tw!

What is the rear axle rating of your Armada? It sounds like you may be near the max.

[hohenwald48]

Ron Gratz wrote:

hohenwald48 wrote:
I'm not sure where those instructions came from. They are not in my owners manual.---

Page 9-23 of the online
2013 ARMADA Owner's Manual.

However, I can achieve those measurements without even connecting the spring bars as the airbags will automatically adjust the suspension to re-level the TV body.---

Are you sure the air suspension will adjust the front height?

My understanding is that the Armada's air "leveling" suspension controls only the rear ride height.
If this is so, you should be able to use the front height (with the auto-leveling active) as an indicator of when sufficient load has been transferred back onto the front via the WDH.

Ron

Interesting that you found that information in an online version of the owner's manual. It's not in the owner's manual included in my glove box. All mine says is the phrase about following the WDH manufacturers instructions.

It's true that the "leveling" system only controls the rear. However, raising and lowering the rear also raises and lowers the front. Additionally, any raising of the rear after shutting off the ignition will result in air being dumped. Any lowering of the rear (like TW or pax in the back seat) will result in raising of the rear when the ignition is turned on. Dumping of air occurs regardless of the ignition being on or off. It makes it kind of difficult.

The consensus seems to be that if I have added back (to the front axle) all the weight that was removed by TW then things are as they should be. I just thought the front axle should be heavier when hitched than when unhitched. The hitch is rated 10,000/1,000 and the vehicle TW rating is #910. I may be a few pounds over on the tongue weight rating but nothing I can't fix by moving a case of water and a couple of lawn chairs to the rear of the TT.

Again, thanks to all for the input. It helps to hear what others think.

[Ron_Gratz]

hohenwald48 wrote:
I'm not sure where those instructions came from. They are not in my owners manual.---

Page 9-23 of the online
2013 ARMADA Owner's Manual.

However, I can achieve those measurements without even connecting the spring bars as the airbags will automatically adjust the suspension to re-level the TV body.---

Are you sure the air suspension will adjust the front height?

My understanding is that the Armada's air "leveling" suspension controls only the rear ride height.
If this is so, you should be able to use the front height (with the auto-leveling active) as an indicator of when sufficient load has been transferred back onto the front via the WDH.

Ron

[APT]

hohenwald48 wrote:

It seems that there should be around #450 more on the front axle when hitched than when unhitched. The TV front and rear axles have exactly the same weights on them when unhitched so it seems logical they should have the same weights when hitched.

No vehicle manufacturer or WDH manufacturer supports that. When you put 1100-ish pounds of TW 4 feet behind the rear axle, the front axle lost some weight, about 350 pounds is my guess. You just restored 100% of lost front axle weight due with the WDH, which is probably the goal given by your Armada owners manual. The WDH took the extra 1450 pounds on the rear axle, shifted 350 to the front axle and 150 to the trailer axles.

You should verify your receiver limit can support 1100 pounds of TW when using a WDH.

[hohenwald48]

I'm not sure where those instructions came from. They are not in my owners manual. However, I can achieve those measurements without even connecting the spring bars as the airbags will automatically adjust the suspension to re-level the TV body. The airbags do nothing to actually transfer load to the front axle.

Additionally, if you shut the engine off (to disable the airbags) then raise the trailer tongue connection to install the spring bars, the auto level system will dump air out of the bags (since you raised the rear of the TV). That dumping of the air will make your measurements invalid since the ride height of the suspension system is changed since the original measurement.

That's why I was trying to do the set-up using weight since the ride height varies due to influences other than tongue weight and spring bar tension. Hope that makes sense.

[Ron_Gratz]

hohenwald48 wrote:
Any thoughts

When in doubt -- check your Owners Manual. I believe it'll say something like:

Follow the instructions provided by the manufacturer for installing and using the weight distributing hitch system.

General set-up instructions are as follows:
1. Park unloaded vehicle on a level surface. With the ignition on and the doors closed, allow the vehicle to stand for several minutes so that it can level.
2. Measure the height of a reference point on the front and rear bumpers at the center of the vehicle.
3. Attach the trailer to the vehicle and adjust the hitch equalizers so that the front bumper height is within 0 - .5 inches (0 – 13 mm) of the reference height measured in step 2. The rear bumper should be no higher than the reference height measured in step 2.

I believe that when Nissan says, "within 0 - .5 inches", they mean within 0-0.5" above the unhitched height. That is consistent with the specifications now stated by most major TV and WDH manufacturers.

Most trucks are designed to have more load added to the rear axle than to the front axle. There is no reason to think that trailer-imposed added load should be carried equally on front and rear.

Ron

[hohenwald48]

It would be nice to get an unhitched weight for the TT axles and tongue but I don't know if the CAT scale folks would want me to take the time to un-hitch and re-hitch on their scales. I might ask them sometime.

I suppose I could remove the spring bars and everything and just pull on the scale with the ball. That would speed up the hitch/unhitch process and keep me from tying up the scale too long.

[jmtandem]

I may be over thinking the whole thing.

Nissan has probably done the thinking for you. Why not get into their towing guides and see what they recommend? A correctly set up weight distribuition hitch will distribute about 20-25 percent of the tongue weight to the trailer axles, some to the front tow vehicle axle and the rest is carried by the tow vehicle's rear axle. At the end of the day how it tows is more important than forumulas, so take it out and see how comfortable you are with it.

[temccarthy1]

hohenwald48 wrote:
Well, of course the Armada is "light weight" compared to an F-250. It's even lighter weight when compared to an F-450. However, it is comparable to an F-150 or Expedition EL and with a #9,100 tow rating and a #15,100 GCWR it exceeds the requirements I'm placing on it with my particular #6,900 trailer by a comfortable margin.

I just thought it seemed reasonable that the tongue weight should be distributed between the front and rear axle at the same ratio as the empty TV weight. It does tow pretty good but seems to wiggle a little when 18 wheelers go by. I suppose that could be a function of the fact that the Armada has a pretty short wheelbase compared to a pick-up.

I'll check the Nissan web site and see what they say but haven't seen anything yet.

Thanks for everyone's input.

No matter how your load is distributed, you will get a wiggle when the big rigs pass you due to the air pressure pushing on the side of your rig! That is normal. I am just ready for it when I see a Rig overtaking me in the passing lane. Not to worry!

[hohenwald48]

jmtandem wrote:

I just thought it seemed reasonable that the tongue weight should be distributed between the front and rear axle at the same ratio as the empty TV weight.

Maybe Nissan is different. However, I don't think you will find your statement supported by any tow vehicle manufacturer.

You're probably right. I just thought it seemed logical.

If you adjust your WDH based on the fender to ground measurement method isn't that what you're doing by adjusting the bars to lower the front and rear of the TV by an equal amount?

Hitched I have #2920 front axle and #4040 rear axle. Unhitched I have #2980 front axle and #3020 rear axle. Weights vary a little based on gas tank and "junk in the trunk". I have a little over 6,000 miles over the past couple of months with this set up.

I may be over thinking the whole thing.

[jmtandem]

I just thought it seemed reasonable that the tongue weight should be distributed between the front and rear axle at the same ratio as the empty TV weight.

Maybe Nissan is different. However, I don't think you will find your statement supported by any tow vehicle manufacturer.

[DutchmenSport]

As a test, you can shorten the chains (and the bars will not be parallel), get the weights and see how it compares. If the numbers come out better, and you feel batter, then make the adjustments to the set-up.

Now, I may get shot full of holes on what I'm about to say here, I guess I have a bulls-eye on my back, but here goes.

Your bars do not need to be perfectly parallel. (oh deer -- shoot me!) If they are tilted some, it won't hurt anything. Now, a really bad, out of parallel might be something else. But a small out of parallel won't hurt. I think the reason it is so strongly recommended to to keep those bars parallel is because that guarantees the bars will not hit the trailer frame when making a turn. When making a turn, the actual distance between the end of the bar and the frame becomes less. As long as the bars completely clear the trailer frame, they are good. So if you bars are not parallel, you do need to make sure they completely clear under the trailer A-frame.

My Equal-i-zer bars are slightly out of parallel, and it doesn't hurt anything towing.

Also, with your current arrangement, I suggest you just go ahead and take the rig for a test spin. If it handles good right now, then you're all set. As long as you have good steering control, I think you may be already set. Go for a drive and have fun!