Cleaning an epdm roof

MKirkland wrote:
You guys really have got the roof subject down to a science. For me, I have had my trusted dealer wash and exam the roof for the last two years. I bought the trailer in 2011 new.The dealer took pics of the roof each year and we would discuss if anything should be done. In the past years we decided the cracks were not bad enough. This year was different. We went ahead with repairs. The sun can get pretty brutal where we live.They took off the old caulking and then used a tube of lap sealant W leveling, and a lap sealant white non leveling. These are Dicor products.It took them just under 4 hours.The cost was around $500.

Hi MKirkland,

Good for you!!! We congratulate you for knowing and doing something to help protect your camper roof system. You now join the small percentage that do "something" to help protect their camper roof.

Curios, do you know if the dealer washes the roof each year before inspecting it?

Yes, as you can see, some of "us" are passionate about our campers and taking care of them. Diesel verses gas, do you need a WD hitch, tires, holding tank chemicals etc. and now maybe do you wash your RV roof... are topics of passion. We do get into it! :)

Thanks

John

Huntindog wrote:
John. as I stated from my post many many years ago, Dicors position on roof cleaning only changed after repeated customer requests on how to do this... Probably because of the harmless black streaks that some get. ( Here in AZ, it doesn't seem to be an issue).
Dicor obviously saw a business opportunity, and created a line of roof cleaning products. Which they now naturally strongly recommend.

As for different thicknesses. That may now be the case. But it doesn't change much.
Likely the RV manufacturers asked for lighter material so they could reduce the weight of their units.

Carlise says that the white material CAN be washed. Only to retain the reflectitiy of the material. But there is NO warranty requirement for it. AND the black material has NO washing recommendations.

For those that want to wash your roof.. My recommendation stays the same. If it makes you feel good, do it. So long as it is done right,
it won't hurt a thing....

But since I became the Safety Coordinator at my job about 5 years ago.... I must caution people on the dangers of doing so. A wet roof can be VERY slippery! The only safe way to do it would be with a catwalk scaffold system. Some dealers may have such a system. I know the manufacturer does, as I have seen it.

A fall to the ground can SERIOUSLY cripple or kill.

Be careful up there.

Hi Huntingdog,

Your note just triggered a few thoughts.

The weather conditions in AZ are very different then back east. My observations on dirt and molded roofs are coming from OH,
PA, NY, MI, NJ, NH, MD, IN for the most part on roofs that I myself have seen or worked on. I have worked out of our Casa Grande AZ (outside Phoenix) for many years. The joke is for us back east, "its a dry heat"... They dry season is long and dry. The wet season is shorter. Back east, mold grows all over. The side of houses, asphalt roofs etc. That slime holds dirt and makes it really stick on a camper roof. I do not recall much mold in my time in AZ the conditions do not support it as much as back east. The wind for sure blows in AZ... and dust is everywhere when it happens. But if there is noting to make it stick, then the buildup on a RV roof may be considerable less. The mold/dirt mixture holds moisture and really raises havoc on the screws in the gutter rails behind the vinyl strip. Screw rot is common here.

I really do not know how dirty and bonded on dirt is on campers in high heat states. They for sure have the heavy UV problems, most likely worse then back east, but a dirty roof from the east may be worse then a dusty roof from AZ. Many of us are reporting on what we see where we live. The 2 may be different levels of severity.

The newer line of Dicor products for roof maintenance. Yes, I agree they now offer all of them where back in the 2003/2004 time frame they did not. They just said use laundry detergent, I picked Tide. But they still said wash the roof 4 times a year. That is not that new. I do not know what it was a lot prior to 2003.

Safety on the roof, I 1,000% agree with you. You really do not want to be on a wet camper roof period. Use a solid 300# OSHA rated ladder tall enough on solid surface and clean from the side with a pole brush. Here is my setup to help the cause.

The ladder setup


The washing brush setup. The toothbrush is for cleaning the crud out of the gutter.


The 303 applicator. A car wax mop on a pole and 303 in a squirt bottle.


We really should not be comparing commercial rubber roofing to an RV roof. The actual water barrier on the Dicor rubber roof of 2003 and 2017 is 0.016". That is not much. It is slightly more then 2 and 1/2 sheets of some printer paper. The largest part of the layer makeup is the white layer. And the makeup of the white layer on an RV roof may be very different then a commercial roof.

Remember the RV industry is after something that just works, is ultra low cost and will just get past the warranty period. The entire camper is only designed to last so long. Dicor filled the need the RV industry was asking for. You do not really seeing Dicor Brite Ply EPDM being put on houses or buildings are you? (at least by mfg recommendation...) The first thing the lady at Dicor said to me, Oh the commercial roofing materiel is very different, it is much thicker. It's different. The entire white layer of and RV roof may be made from very different material then the commercial roof the black layer too. Do you think the RV roof is made the exact same way as the commercial roof? If so how did you come to this conclusion?

Thanks

John

You guys really have got the roof subject down to a science. For me, I have had my trusted dealer wash and exam the roof for the last two years. I bought the trailer in 2011 new.The dealer took pics of the roof each year and we would discuss if anything should be done. In the past years we decided the cracks were not bad enough. This year was different. We went ahead with repairs. The sun can get pretty brutal where we live.They took off the old caulking and then used a tube of lap sealant W leveling, and a lap sealant white non leveling. These are Dicor products.It took them just under 4 hours.The cost was around $500.

LarryJM wrote:
John,

As I said if one is to do any routine maintenance on an EDPM roof then your 4x a year especially using the 303 is IMO probably the one that I will concede is probably the best you can do and will actually extend the life of an EDPM roof.

IIRC an application of 303 lasts on the order of 1 to 3 months so at 4x a year you are IMO getting 95% of the benefit of using that and even simply slapping in over even a dirty EDPM roof might be just as effective as cleaning it first and then applying 303, but we won't really know and in the end it's not that important since what you do I readily admit works and I can see why.

However, you IMO are the exception to the rule on maintaining an RV in general and your roof maintenance just further demonstrates that and 99% of the folks out there would not do what you have done, nor keep their RV long enough to actually see any end benefit.

Of course we can't really tell, but even the roof with all those spider cracks while looking bad are still IMO full serviceable and might last another 10 to 15 years before the membrane would actually need to be replaced and getting 15 to 25 years service out of an EDPM roof should satisify any normal persons expectations and/or requirements.

I haven't actually done it, but it would not surprise me if you use upwards of 1 1/2 gal of 303 a year doing an application 4 times per year and at $50/gal over 10 years thats close to $750 in 303 alone which is almost the cost of a new membrane less installation where all the roof replacement cost is admittedly.

Larry

Hi Larry,

Thanks for the good words on taking care of the camper. And having one long enough to even get data like this... I'm humbled!

I have been helping folks with 10 plus year old campers lately. Not everyone buys new ones. And some folks may actually want to keep their campers a long time. They sure do not build them like they use too. I agree that the number of folks that do nothing at all on their roof is way too high. Come 6 to 10 years of doing nothing and the leaks are already in it. Yes this is from the caulking but my post was to help show, cleaning can enhance the life of the roof, not damage it.

The spider cracks is a fallout I believe from UV rays. By my using the 303, I warded off those cracks. Some cracks are small, some very large where you can see the black layer below it. To me, is a not good thing to have the spider cracks. If the white layer helps in retarding the UV attack on the black layer, anything to slow down the degradation of the white layer helps. And lets not go there that cleaning is killing the white layer. See the post above. If you follow the Dicor method, you can clean the roof and not kill the white layer.

I agree the white layer cracks are not affecting the membrane from leaking directly. The black layer is the water seal but the black left exposed will then start to break down more, IMO. If you have worn off the white layer enough the black layer is showing up, then a recoating needs to be done to build back up the white layer.

I'm not with you on putting 303 over the top of dirt. They will make the dirt situation of abrasiveness worse. It will be like bonding layers of new 3 months dirt on top of each other. My gosh the black streaks could take on new meaning... and the dirt could accumulate more... Putting 303 on a clean roof really helps the dirt fall off for a period of time. Remember you put those nice fancy rain guard flaps on to help on the black streaks and keep water off beating on the camper. Smart move!!!

I use a little less then 1 qt of 303 per roof treatment and that is everything up there not only the rubber. That is 1 gallon a year, $50 bucks in 4 treatments. I saw 3 months on the reapply instructions, I did not notice the 1 month thing. Spending $700 in 303 over 14 years is still cheaper then a new roof.

I have done total roof replacements, the material is $768 plus 246 work hours for a 27 foot camper with a walk on EPDM roof. That also included rebuilding the rear and front wall wood rot so the roof only is somewhat less labor. You pick what ever dollar per hour you want on the labor. A roof replace is not cheap. I can link the repair if wanted. It comes down to, if you cannot do the labor yourself, sell the camper the repair cost may be more then the camper. Point being, maintain the roof it is cheaper then replacing the roof.

I know I'm most likely not going to change ones mind on cleaning a roof if folks are in the camp of, don't clean the roof. OK, it's their roof, do as you please. Just like I'm not going to change what I do. Maybe though some folks who really do not know what to do, might think about this more and make a call that fits them. Hopefully they learn you have to maintain your RV rubber roof every year on a periodic basis or else the camper will die a death of water infection.

Thanks

John

Hi Folks,

We have been out camping and just catching back up on this roof cleaning topic.

It seems there is an opinion that washing the roof is a waste of time, it does not need to be done or is actually damaging to the roof. This conflicts with what I have found.

I asked this question a number of replies ago about if anyone found a manufacture or a rubber “camper” roof that stated to not wash the roof as it would damage the roof? As of today no one yet has been able speak to a brand that says that nor link to it. Maybe it will come yet.

JBarca wrote:
Hi, trying to learn about how you came to learning this.

I'm not following this thought process. Have you found a manufacture of a rubber roof membrane that has stated to not "clean" the roof? If so, please link their instructions that state this. May learn something new from it.

Dicor is who made my EPDM roof. Read all of it including the UV protectent at the end. This is their recommendation. Dicor EPDM Rubber Roofing Care

I took Huntingdogs lead and did some reading on the Carlise roofing site. They make commercial buildings rubber roofs. These types of rubber roofs seem to be different then the RV camper rubber roof. First off, they offer black rubber and white rubber pending what state you live in as buildings in cool climates can benefit from the added heat to the building from using black rubber. White rubber is used in hotter climates as the added heat load becomes a problem with the air conditioning. They also make many different grades and thickness along with warranty periods. Some commercial rubber roofs can have a 30 year warranty, others are 5 year. Point is, they are not all equal and have special purposes of the rubber material. Do not assume all rubber roofs are created equal.

Somehow, it seems some folks think these commercial rubber roofs are just like a camper rubber roof. I’m sure there are some similarities but I would not go as far as thinking they are the same.

Keeping an open mind, I did some more digging and ended up calling Dicor direct to confirm some things. Again, this is for my EPDM rubber roof made to Dicor specifications. I do not know what brand or type you have.

My camper was built in Nov, 2003. Here is a copy out of my owners manual. A cut sheet from Dicor on what they declare is proper maintenance to the roof. This was 14 years ago.





That recommendation 14 years ago in my owners manual aligns with the same instructions found today on the Dicor web site. They declare proper care is needed for the roof to be in warranty which is 12 years and they state the roof is good for 20 years if proper care is done that they recommend.

So I have been following their recommendation for 14 years using laundry soap with a medium bristle brush and washing the roof 3 to 4 times a year. I myself added the 303 UV protectant treatment that is now is part of the web site care instructions that states using a UV inhibiter is acceptable. The instructions also talk to bleaching if needed to remove mold.

My camper has aluminum siding. It also has a coating to make it more scratch and dent resistant called Krystal Kote. Some brands of campers use it, some don’t. I find it really helps on the dents and scratches and even helps against hail damage as compared to non coated siding.

I also know that when my roof gets dirty, the black streaks start getting really bad. And cleaning the camper is tedious getting rid of them. There is a definite difference in cleaning fiberglass sided camper then an aluminum camper. The Krystal Kote siding may even make it a little worse than plain aluminum siding as the coating has small pockets of holes and the black streaks get locked in those holes. If I did not clean my roof, the upkeep of cleaning the black streaks off the camper sides is a lot worse. It is a reason that aligns to keep the roof clean.

I have replaced and repaired enough Dirco roofs on other campers to have a few samples of virgin roof material. This Dicor rubber is 0.040” total thickness. It is made up of approximately a 0.016” black layer bonded to a 0.024” white layer. I sanded on a belt sander the white layer to just touch the black layer and measured it. Yes, I had to sand it off it is not that easy to get off. See here. There is some error in this but this gives us the big picture of the make up.



0.040" total thickness


0.016" approx. black layer thickness. I sanded 2 spots to get an average of the black layer thickness.




I believe the actual waterproof barrier is the black layer. The white layer is about reflectivity and being a UV protector to the black layer. The camper roof has 0.016” thick black material. Not very much. As a comparison to commercial roofing, the all black rubber membranes are much thicker, 0.045 and 0.060 are some and they have longer warranties too. https://www.carlislesyntec.com/view.aspx?mode=media&contentID=1183

The white covered EPDM, I do not know the layer make up only the total thickness. Some are 0.060” and some are 0.090” https://www.carlislesyntec.com/view.aspx?mode=media&contentID=1179

According to the commercial maintenance and care instructions Carlisle recommends to clean the white EPDM every 2 years with mild detergent to maximize reflectivity. https://www.carlislesyntec.com/view.aspx?mode=media&contentID=1127

Bottom line, the commercial EPDM rubber roofs are different then an RV camper EPDM rubber roof. Why are folks comparing them to be the same?

My call to Dicor Products confirmed, they want you to clean the roof. They state 4 times a year using the method and cleaning materials they recommend. They stated the dirt on the surface changes the reflectivity of the roofing. A dirty roof also makes it harder to inspect the caulking accurately. I tried to get more out of them about if cleaning was a bad thing and they responded several times, follow the care instructions as they have posted. You are not damaging the roof by following their instructions.

I asked about the warranty and if the care instructions of cleaning were not followed would this affect the 12 year warranty? The answer was yes, not following the care instructions can have a negative effect on accepting a warranty claim.

So in writing, across at least the last 14 years, Dicor wants you to clean the roof by using their method. So where does all this talk of doing damage to your Dicor Brite Ply EPDM rubber roof come from by cleaning it?

RV’ing is about choices as has been said. You can choose to follow the manufactures recommendations about their products to meet their warranty or you can chose something else. Your choice.

So I chose to follow the instructions and post my 14 year data, maybe it might help you, maybe not. I hoped it was helpful.

Thanks

John

LarryJM wrote:

nextlevel wrote:
Good morning everyone. I am having trouble getting my epdm roof clean. I bought this 2011 Puma back in July and I don't think the previous owner ever cleaned the roof. I am presently using Lucas #115 as a cleaner but after cleaning I can still rub my hand across the rubber and white stuff comes off. Any advice?

Yea LEAVE IT ALONE ... that white stuff is the normal deterioration of the protective layer which helps provide more protection as a somewhat sacrificial layer if left alone. By trying to remove it which BTW is going to be virtually impossible you are IMO actually SHORTENING THE LIFE of your roof.

LEAVE YOUR ROOF ALONE and GO CAMPING:B:W

Larry

This is exactly correct. I just don't understand why people are obsessed about the cleanliness of their roof to the extent they actually damage it.

JBarca wrote:
The lack of roof maintenance really shows up on this camper. The caulking is in real bad shape. Splits and cracks in a lot of places that are deep. A classic of what happens when you do not do roof maintenance.
.....
Thoughts? What did I miss that tells me leaving the roof uncleaned and un UV treated is OK to do?

Thanks

John

The issue with your friends roof is the first piece that I quoted... caulking is in real bad shape. That is why her roof leaked, not because she didn't clean and condition it.

I sold my 1998 Nash a little over 2 years ago. It was never covered and the roof was never cleaned. When I bought it, I cleaned the edges where the caulk is and used Eternabond tape. The original Nash roof was 17 years old when I sold it and it was fine.

People that want their roof to look pretty can wash and polish and condition to their hearts desire... but I have seen no evidence that doing any of that makes your roof last one day longer. In fact, I remember reading literature that explains that the white coating is specifically designed to chalk off to extend the longevity of the roof. By washing and rubbing off that rough chalked off surface, you are removing the designed feature that extends the life.

Your camper, your choice. I'd rather spend that money on fuel to go camping more and spend that time camping more. EdAtlanta is the only person that I have ever heard of that had a rubber roof failure... ever. Every other roof failure or leak that I have ever seen or heard has been due to improper maintenance of caulked joints or deteriorated plastic pieces on the roof.