Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[Rvndave]

Just filled my tank in signature. Went 644.3 miles and used 28.931 gal of diesel fuel. I calculated 22.27 mpg. I prefer the diesel to a gas engine for power and fuel economy.

[stephen_haley]

well these old timers, those that were weaned on DP's can tell you more than I can, but in general a diesel has to get closer to running temp before you put a load on it due to the enormous pressures it works under, it's fuel type, many cases relate to brake pressures, being absolutely oil pressures are up and so on. short hops are made better letting it sit and idle. truckers leave big rigs on all night with very little problem. in the morning when they take out they'll blow out what carbon has accumulated in a short time. carbon build up is a big issue for diesels that are run and stopped over and over again throuhout a day, but newer PU diesels are much better about it.
as far as maintenence for PU's i have friend that don't change oil except for every 10k or more miles. in fact you can put an external, additional oil filter on some diesels and every 2k miles change that 1 filter and put in a quart or less to top it off and you can stay that way for a year. this external filter should be previous to the factory filter.
total service, all filters and all fluids can cost $200 to $300 depending on your rig and where you are and who is doing it.
or you can do it yourself if you obtain the aide of a good diesel mechanic and simply pay him to do it once and show you how. it'll cost you under $75 per total service on a PU assuming all filters and fluids are changed and you do the work.
these other guys will give you much more specifics shortly i am certain.

stephen

[rvgonda]

Thanks Stephen!

Your response leads to more questions. What kinds of maintenance does a diesel require that is different from a gasser?

Also, I've read that diesels, at least in colder climates, do not like to be used for short run delivery use, or for short shopping trips. Aside from the gas consumption, why would a diesel motor not like this treatment?

I have seen such statements in other forums but wihout any explanation whatsoever as to why this would be so.

Ray

[stephen_haley]

diesels have and need more compression.

something like 8 or 10 to 1 for passengar cars and as much as 25 or 27 to one for diesels. more compression more heat. heat required to ignite fuel burn clean. diesels run cooler, not hotter and in most cases never run hot if maintained regardless of what you are pulling.

also because they are over built in most cases with an exceptional cooling system.

this is why an OTR can go 3 years, and maybe even 200k and never have to flush out the system or add coolent if it is maintained correctly.

in fact if you were to put the same cooling system on a gasser, which you can't, you'd never experience overheating under any load for the life of the vehicle. assuming you did not you fail in other areas of maintenence.

the radiator in my brothers kenworth tractor is over 8" thick and about 4 feet wide and 5 feet tall. compare that to the 2.5 inch thick and 27 inch wide and 27 inches tall we get in a pu truck. and unlike our cars and trucks being plastic and aluminum. his is copper/brass/aluminum and the joints are all silver soldered like refrigeration system piping.

so there just is no comparison.

stephen

[rvgonda]

It's been stated several times in this thread that a diesel engine likes to be used hard such as when pulling a heavy load and it likes being run hotter than a gas motor. My assumptions or speculations have been that this is due to the need to run hot to burn the fuel cleanly or that it is necessary to burn any deposits off of the cylinder walls to keep the motor interior clean.

Can someone or two enlighten me with the some persuasive details to support these claims?

[LimogesMan]

Travis,

First of all, always keep out of O/D when pulling unless you have a diesel.
I have a feeling you have a high gear set with the current truck.
3.73 would be a good choice. 4.10 for better towing but will be a little harder on gas when cruising without a load. Consider the price of that vs a new truck.

If you pull all the time + you do over 25000 miles a year, a diesel truck would serve you better.

[stephen_haley]

when i pulled with my ford i staed at 55 to 60 max and keep it out of OD. i have never had a problem with my gasser pickup pulling a 10k trailer with 3 horses across country. it just tooled down the road and nevere misses a beat. but that is running 58 as an average and i know that's slow for all of you AJ Foyts out there; but, it paid me back many times over by keeping it under 60 and outta OD. never had a break down and over 200k on it when i sold it and it finally started using a quart of oil every 2000 miles.

stephen

[Winnipeg]

As Bluenote says, gassers want to rev up to make power and torque. You are better keeping it out of OD if there is any work involved. The gas mileage will not change, but it takes some getting used to hearing the higher revs.

Diesels are cool and expensive. Its amazing to drag a 10,000 trailer up a steep hill at 70 mph and stay in 6th gear, but not always necessary. You likely don't need one for your towing.

[bluenote]

Cornercarver wrote:
My questions:

How much are Diesel oil changes... really, and how often are they?

How much are fuel filters?

Will the fuel gel very often due to cold temps in my area?
- What about warm up times?
- I hear remote starters are not recommended?

Do I still have to let the turbo cool?

Will a 6.0L gas truck serve me better even though it will end up costing me more in fuel over the coarse of ownership?

Should I stop whining about the truck screaming all the time and just suck it up for such a light load?

I buy my AC oil filters from Murray's Automotive for $3.50 and take it to Walmart, where they use Shell 15W-40 Diesel Motor Oil. They give me a credit for bringing my own filter and my total ends up being about $32. This is approximately every 7K.

Changing the fuel filter in a Duramax isn't difficult, so I'd suggest doing it yourself. I can buy the new style dual media filter for about $22 through an online vendor and I change it every 10K (GM still recommends 15K).

In cold weather climates, the filling stations use blended diesel in the winter months, so it's unlikely you'd have gelling problems. If you're concerned, there are several good additives out there to help prevent gelling problems. I live in mid-Michigan and have never needed to use additives for gelling problems.

It does take a diesel longer to warm up, particularly if there's not a load on the engine. I believe the newer DMax's and PSD's all have a high idle function from the factory. I installed a high idle kit on mine and it works wonderfully. You can also plug them in during extreme cold and they start almost like it's summertime.

You can use a remote starter, but you need to get one with a delay feature, to allow the glow plugs (or heater grid) to warm the cylinders before starting. Several companies make starters capable of this.

The newest generation pickup diesel's do not require a very long turbo cool-down. By the time you exit the highway and make it to the gas station, etc..., you are generally OK. If you are concerned and want to make sure, you can always add a pyrometer.

The vortec 6000 would not have to work very hard to pull the load you have. The diesel would barely know it was back there. If you're going to put a fair amount of miles on the truck yearly, the diesel will pay for itself over time.

It sounds to me like you've got enough engine for what you pull now. The current generation small block gassers are made to rev high like that to generate pulling power. I don't believe you are over-taxing your current truck, but you would appreciate the additional power of a stronger engine.

Good Luck and have fun shopping!

[Cornercarver]

I have a question on this topic that hopefully you all can help me with. First, let me tell you my situation and what I am running.

I live in New York and have a 2004 1500 Silverado(non-HD)with the 5.3L in it, Ext. Cab, 4x4. I currently have an all-aluminum 19ft enclosed snowmobile trailer that I use to not only carry my snowmobiles in the winter, but also my race bike (and serves as sleeping quarters at the track) in the summer. The trailer is fairly tall at about 9ft to the top and has a V-nose. Loaded with the snowmobiles it weighs roughly 2700lbs - 3000lbs and that is probably the most weight it will see when I tow it.

For the record, my 5.3 gets about 18 on the highway (I always run at 70+... just being honest) unloaded and about 11 towing this trailer (also 70+).

My situation: Towing back and forth to NH and then to the mountains to go snowmobiling seems to really tax this truck. Going down the highway at 70mph the truck CANNOT maintain overdrive even in the slightest of head winds. So obviously any kind of grade makes the truck shift out of OD. When towing through the hills of RT 7 and 9 to NH, the truck seems like it is always screaming 3000+ RPMs to get it through the hills. It has more than enough power to pull the trailer and maintain speed, but it shifts a lot when doing so. (I believe this was explained well in the Hemi vs cummins analogy earlier on).

My dilema: Everyone says that a diesel is not necessary for towing such a light load. So I looked into the 6.0L engines and 2500 trucks. While I tow all year round, I don't know as if I would consider myself someone who tows a lot. Although, my conditions are more difficult than most. Having said that, the 6.0L in the 2500 would be mostly a commuter truck, at which point the 12mpg they get unloaded on a daily basis would hurt (my cousin has the 2500HD with this reported AVERAGE mileage). In addition, having never driven a 6.0L with my trailer, I am not sure that it would totally solve my shifting problem going down the highway in OD (some light on this would be helpful).

So I looked at Diesels. Pricing out the 6.0L truck and the more expensive Diesel vs. reported gas AVERAGE mileage for both (12mpg & 17mpg respectively), the Diesel would pay for itself in fuel over the course of 4.5 years at 20kmi/year (which is what I drive). That is even at current gas prices where I live, which is $2.90 Diesel and $2.60 for gas.

My questions:

How much are Diesel oil changes... really, and how often are they?

How much are fuel filters?

Will the fuel gel very often due to cold temps in my area?
- What about warm up times?
- I hear remote starters are not recommended?

Do I still have to let the turbo cool?

Will a 6.0L gas truck serve me better even though it will end up costing me more in fuel over the coarse of ownership?

Should I stop whining about the truck screaming all the time and just suck it up for such a light load? 🙂


Thanks for the help. I am right on the brink of buying a new truck and would like to make the best decision I can when spending this kind of money. Currently I am looking at an F-350 PSD and 2500 Duramax (350 only because that is all we seem to have in my area...and it seems little different than the 250).

Travis

[tropicalwinds]

I just had to sign up to answer the gas vs. diesel question. I have an 05 CTD, but I'm towing around 8 to 9k when loaded. I think a lot depends on how much weight your towing how often you tow, and where your general area of towing is. All of my towing is mountains just getting from my house to wherever I'm headed. I realize that the Smoky Mountains are not the Rockies by any means, but there are plenty of 6% grades to pull around here. So I got the diesel, and it definitely was worth the price to me. Will the added price I paid for the diesel work out in the long run I really don't know. Guess time will tell, but I can say I know longer wonder if I'll run hot trying to pull a hard grade, and I don't look ahead at ever hill wondering how much of a run I need to get to try and top it at a decent speed. It just makes tow a much better expensive for me and the family. Everyone just has to decide what's best for themselves.

[Kyle401]

Bunk wrote:
I would be useing it every couple of weeks but not on long hauls. about 500 miles round trip. With the condensation factor I would like to keep the tanks full. Additives to keep fuel fresh?
Bunk

Diesel fuel does not have energy degradation problems like gasoline does. As long as the fuel is properly filtered, fuel age should not be a problem. Gasoline is blended with butane, which may escape over time, to improve volatility, therefore older gasoline may not provide good performance.

[Paul_Clancy]

Racor biocide

[stephen_haley]

Bunk wrote:
I would be useing it every couple of weeks but not on long hauls. about 500 miles round trip. With the condensation factor I would like to keep the tanks full. Additives to keep fuel fresh?
Bunk

I don't see a problem with it being used every 2 weeks and having the tanks full.

These long timers can give you more first hand experience. They'll be responding.

stephen
Soon to own my next RV

[Bunk]

I would be useing it every couple of weeks but not on long hauls. about 500 miles round trip. With the condensation factor I would like to keep the tanks full. Additives to keep fuel fresh?
Bunk