Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[Hannibal]

The point is, the '03 Cummins had 100ft/lbs more torque while the Hemi had 100 more hp. The 100 more hp towed 10k lbs faster up the grades.

[transamz9]

Hannibal wrote:

transamz9 wrote:

Hannibal wrote:
Don't know about the 6.0 GM vs the 6.6L Dmax but my 345hp/365ftlbs '05 Hemi powered 2500HD Ram towed our previous 10,400 lb 5th wheel up the grades faster than our 250hp/460 ftlbs '03 2500HD Ram. With horsepower you can make torque through gear reduction. That extra 100 hp made a pretty big difference at highway speeds.

Here we go again Hannibal, comparing apples to oranges. I have told you before I believe, I will be more than happy to meet you somewhere with my stock '05 cummins and we can do some test runs. Your 345 hp/365 lbft against my 325 hp/610 lbft. I'll bring my 18,000# trailer and you can pick the 500 mile route.

I see you now have a 2010 5.4 Ford? 320 hp? even better comparison. You should have the 6 speed trans, better for you. I'm still up for the test, are you?

My 2010 5.4L F250 advertises 310hp/360ftlbs and has a 5spd TS transmission. What your truck has to do with my two previous trucks and how they compared towing the same 5th wheel, I don't know. I'm well beyond the age of racing up grades to prove a point. My comparison between my two trucks is fact. Just the same, if you're going to expect me to believe you tow 18000 lbs up a 6% grade 65mph in O/D, you need to cut back on the burritos. If we're ever in the same area and it's convenient, I'd be happy to hitch up your 18000 lb 5th wheel to my truck for no other reason than to see how it does good or bad. Fact is, if the grade requires 300hp to pull, your truck will be at 3k rpm, mine will be at 5k rpm IF they both produce their advertised HP. As elevation goes up, mine goes down. You'll never see a post where I've denied that. I can easily afford my 7th diesel pickup. If the gassers didn't perform to my satisfaction, I would be back in a diesel long before now.

I'm not talking about a race up a hill either. I was just stating that you were comparing "your" 2005 Hemi to your 2003 Cummins. Not Apples to Apples. If you were comparing your 2005 Hemi to a 2005 Cummins then I would say O.K. There is 75 HP and 150 lbft of torque difference between an 03 and 05 Cummins.

No I'm not saying I can tow it at 65 up a 6% in OD in stock form. I can do it @ 70 with stock tires but not at 65. 68 is when my truck kicks out of OD with my foot on the floor in stock form. With the size tire I have now it kicks down at 74. But like I said, I'm not racing, just holding my speed. I like to run between 68 and 72. That's where I get "MY" best MPG (programmed)with my 13' tall 5er which is 10-11 depending on head wind.

[transamz9]

Taco wrote:
For all those that say torque turns my wheels that is exactly right. torque at the wheels not torque at the crankshaft.

An example: 660 revolutions of a tire per minute to go 60 mph.

Duramax LLY as found in MOST 2006 gm diesels

660 X 3.73 X 1.00 = 2461 rpm

at 2500 rpm per hypertech dyno chart a lly makes 500 ft lb

500 x 3.73 x 1.00 = 1865 ft lb to the WHEELS at 60 mph


2012 silverado 6.0

660 x 3.73 x 2.36 = 5800 rpm (200 below redline)

at 5800 rpm per hypertech dyno chart the 6.0 makes 270 ft lb of torque

270 x 3.73 x 2.36 = 2377 torque to the wheels

So at 60 mph at max effort the 6.0 is capable of 512 more ft lbs or TORQUE to the wheels than a lly duramax.

I already know what the diesel guys will say "ain't no way no gasser will out tow my big tough diesel."

which is why I said it is like explaining physics to a chimp

So if you are comparing the 6.0 at 200 RPM's below the redline then why aren't you doing the Duramax the same?It is capable of turning way more than 2461 RPM's. Apples to Apples.

I'm not saying a gasser won't out tow my oil burner. It might tow as well, it just has to work a lot harder and so does the transmission. I will say that a stock 5.4 or 6.0 gasser will not out tow my diesel.

[Taco]

For all those that say torque turns my wheels that is exactly right. torque at the wheels not torque at the crankshaft.

An example: 660 revolutions of a tire per minute to go 60 mph.

Duramax LLY as found in MOST 2006 gm diesels

660 X 3.73 X 1.00 = 2461 rpm

at 2500 rpm per hypertech dyno chart a lly makes 500 ft lb

500 x 3.73 x 1.00 = 1865 ft lb to the WHEELS at 60 mph


2012 silverado 6.0

660 x 3.73 x 2.36 = 5800 rpm (200 below redline)

at 5800 rpm per hypertech dyno chart the 6.0 makes 270 ft lb of torque

270 x 3.73 x 2.36 = 2377 torque to the wheels

So at 60 mph at max effort the 6.0 is capable of 512 more ft lbs or TORQUE to the wheels than a lly duramax.

I already know what the diesel guys will say "ain't no way no gasser will out tow my big tough diesel."

which is why I said it is like explaining physics to a chimp

[Hannibal]

Rvndave wrote:
Torque can be measured, horsepower is a calculation using torque and RPM. Torque is what turns my wheels. If someone wants to use a higher HP number and think they are going to be at the top of a mountain first, you will see them at the top, but only if the diesel waits for them!!!!! Another factor not being considered is the fact that the air is thinner as we go up the mountain, a turbo or supercharger reduces this power loss. I don't see how a naturally aspirated gas engine with lower torque numbers is going to beat a turbo diesel with comparable loads, and wind resistance to the top of a mountain. I suspect Hannibal is going by the seat of the pants feeling, or his past diesel had problems with his engine that reduced power output.

If you're going to spec an engine for a motorhome or OTR truck, how do you calculate how much torque will be needed to run 60mph up a 6% grade? You first have to know how much horsepower is needed. It's horsepower. Torque is a static measurement. It implies no movement at all. Horsepower is a measurement of work over time. If you break it down further, you'll see that the NA gas engine loses a lot of horsepower at high altitudes and it's peak horsepower is at high rpm so unless the driver is willing to run at 5k rpm, reduce that hp to it's 4k rpm value and it makes better sense why the diesel tows better with two equal hp trucks. There's more to it than just peak hp and more torque means you make more hp at lower rpm but it's still horsepower that determines the speed you're able to tow.

[Hannibal]

transamz9 wrote:

Hannibal wrote:
Don't know about the 6.0 GM vs the 6.6L Dmax but my 345hp/365ftlbs '05 Hemi powered 2500HD Ram towed our previous 10,400 lb 5th wheel up the grades faster than our 250hp/460 ftlbs '03 2500HD Ram. With horsepower you can make torque through gear reduction. That extra 100 hp made a pretty big difference at highway speeds.

Here we go again Hannibal, comparing apples to oranges. I have told you before I believe, I will be more than happy to meet you somewhere with my stock '05 cummins and we can do some test runs. Your 345 hp/365 lbft against my 325 hp/610 lbft. I'll bring my 18,000# trailer and you can pick the 500 mile route.

I see you now have a 2010 5.4 Ford? 320 hp? even better comparison. You should have the 6 speed trans, better for you. I'm still up for the test, are you?

My 2010 5.4L F250 advertises 310hp/360ftlbs and has a 5spd TS transmission. What your truck has to do with my two previous trucks and how they compared towing the same 5th wheel, I don't know. I'm well beyond the age of racing up grades to prove a point. My comparison between my two trucks is fact. Just the same, if you're going to expect me to believe you tow 18000 lbs up a 6% grade 65mph in O/D, you need to cut back on the burritos. If we're ever in the same area and it's convenient, I'd be happy to hitch up your 18000 lb 5th wheel to my truck for no other reason than to see how it does good or bad. Fact is, if the grade requires 300hp to pull, your truck will be at 3k rpm, mine will be at 5k rpm IF they both produce their advertised HP. As elevation goes up, mine goes down. You'll never see a post where I've denied that. I can easily afford my 7th diesel pickup. If the gassers didn't perform to my satisfaction, I would be back in a diesel long before now.

[transamz9]

For me, this is not about a race to the top of the mountain. It's about the ease of the pull. The longevity of the engine being put under the stresses of towing heavy and being able to pass a fuel station. Yes I would agree that the diesels of yesteryear were slow and less powerful and it took me years to warm up to them but now, well let's just say IMO you have to types of motors. One is a truck motor (diesel) and the other is a car motor that they put in a truck body (gas). Get what you want and drive it. I have had them all, I drive them all every day. For what I do with mine, a gas motor will never hold up for any time.

[Rvndave]

Torque can be measured, horsepower is a calculation using torque and RPM. Torque is what turns my wheels. If someone wants to use a higher HP number and think they are going to be at the top of a mountain first, you will see them at the top, but only if the diesel waits for them!!!!! Another factor not being considered is the fact that the air is thinner as we go up the mountain, a turbo or supercharger reduces this power loss. I don't see how a naturally aspirated gas engine with lower torque numbers is going to beat a turbo diesel with comparable loads, and wind resistance to the top of a mountain. I suspect Hannibal is going by the seat of the pants feeling, or his past diesel had problems with his engine that reduced power output.

[transamz9]

Crazyfoe wrote:
Who the bleep cares..does it do the job safely or not? It's like a fricken pissing match to which no side is going to convince the other so why bother....no one is going to take the test...again why bother. I don't care what people think anymore....I love my earth day truck and at the end of the day all that matters. But since your going to continue anyway I've got a 6-pack and popocorn ready....

Evidently you do if you are reading this thread.

[Sport45]

Taco wrote:
My truck will pull up a grade faster than an 06 duramax stock for stock because it has more horsepower. Doesn't matter if it is 8k or 14k.

Don't start that again. 🙂

You know you're outnumbered and will be beat down even when correct, right?

Horsepower only counts here if you can get it below 2500 rpm. 😉

[Crazyfoe]

Who the bleep cares..does it do the job safely or not? It's like a fricken pissing match to which no side is going to convince the other so why bother....no one is going to take the test...again why bother. I don't care what people think anymore....I love my earth day truck and at the end of the day all that matters. But since your going to continue anyway I've got a 6-pack and popocorn ready....

[Jarlaxle]

Taco wrote:
trying to explain the gearing and how it multiplies torque to a diesel owner is like explaining physics to a chimp. anyways the truck with more horsepower given appropriate gearing will tow faster up a grade.

Spot on. Exactly correct in all respects.

The problem here is simple: too many people failed basic physics.

[Jarlaxle]

I will give anyone here who claims torque is more important than horsepower one million dollars if he can answer this simple question with a hard number: how much TORQUE is required to pull a 14,000lb load up a 5% grade at 60MPH?

The answer, of course, is that the torque number is irrelevant. Horsepower (and gearing to apply it properly) determines the speed up a grade, not torque.

[transamz9]

Hannibal wrote:
Don't know about the 6.0 GM vs the 6.6L Dmax but my 345hp/365ftlbs '05 Hemi powered 2500HD Ram towed our previous 10,400 lb 5th wheel up the grades faster than our 250hp/460 ftlbs '03 2500HD Ram. With horsepower you can make torque through gear reduction. That extra 100 hp made a pretty big difference at highway speeds.

Here we go again Hannibal, comparing apples to oranges. I have told you before I believe, I will be more than happy to meet you somewhere with my stock '05 cummins and we can do some test runs. Your 345 hp/365 lbft against my 325 hp/610 lbft. I'll bring my 18,000# trailer and you can pick the 500 mile route.

I see you now have a 2010 5.4 Ford? 320 hp? even better comparison. You should have the 6 speed trans, better for you. I'm still up for the test, are you?

[Hannibal]

Don't know about the 6.0 GM vs the 6.6L Dmax but my 345hp/365ftlbs '05 Hemi powered 2500HD Ram towed our previous 10,400 lb 5th wheel up the grades faster than our 250hp/460 ftlbs '03 2500HD Ram. With horsepower you can make torque through gear reduction. That extra 100 hp made a pretty big difference at highway speeds.