I've spent a lot of time looking at the ever-changing capabilities of pick-ups, and a separate thread earlier today really go me thinking about the uselessness of truck categories. The 1/2, 3/4 and 1-ton badges simply don't mean what they once did. With this in mind, I went to the 2019 Ford specs and found an F150 with 13k in conventional towing and 2,870 in payload. Meanwhile, I found an F350 with 12,300 in towing and 2,910 in payload.Now, these are the rarities and the extremes, but it points out the variance in the traditional truck grades, and it makes me ask a question. Even the most conservative rules of thumb, when we first started in the camping world 10 years ago, suggested that one could tow up to 80% of towing capacity. Then, in the 1/2 ton market, we would always say that payload was the limiting factor. The thing is, it's not anymore!In the F150 case above, the 80% rule would have someone towing a 10,400 pound trailer with an F150, and that would only use 1,200-1,500 pounds of their 2,870 payload - giving them plenty of leeway for passengers and gear. So, my question is this...How do we judge what is sufficient anymore? How do we know what a truck is realistically capable of? I don't know many F150 owners that would suggest towing a 10k trailer, but one could do that well within the limits of the modern-day specs. I've always been one to say, 'Know your numbers and live within them.' That is the rule I've followed myself. Now I wonder if that advice is really sufficient anymore.

The ole 1/2, 3/4 1 ton designations no longer apply.......haven't for YEARSWhat does apply is 'CLASS' RatingsGVWR Ranges define CLASS Class I-------up to 6000#Class II--------up to 10,000#Class III----------up to 14,000#GVWR minus UVW equals PayloadFor ME........I go by Axle/Tire Load Ratings to determine WHAT Can I Tow?

I think the manufacturers tow ratings make better sense now than they ever did. The thing people need to be aware of is that HD3/4 tons are identical to 1 tons other than they have less leafs in the rear springs which prevent them from being able to carry much of a trailer. Once the manufactures stop producing these useless 3/4 tons and put the 3/4 ton badging on the 1 ton SRW everything will make sense..... it will be if a half ton won't do it you gets a 3/4 (which will be sprung like a present day 1ton SRW) if the 3/4 ton doesn't cut it you get a 1 ton which means you get duals

Those 150/1500, 250/2500, and 350/3500 numbers on the side don’t tell much any more. There are so many configuration variations, and subsequent variations in ratings, of each that you have to look in depth the ratings for each and how they were obtained.

Old-Biscuit wrote:The ole 1/2, 3/4 1 ton designations no longer apply.......haven't for YEARSWhat does apply is 'CLASS' RatingsGVWR Ranges define CLASS Class I-------up to 6000#Class II--------up to 10,000#Class III----------up to 14,000#GVWR minus UVW equals PayloadFor ME........I go by Axle/Tire Load Ratings to determine WHAT Can I Tow?^^^^^This^^^^^

The "80% rule" is made up and has no basis in fact. As the gross combined weight of any tow vehicle increases, performance and durability decline. At the GCWR, a parameter of performance, whether it's braking, acceleration, handling or starting gradeability has declined to the point where one or more of these factors is not acceptable to the manufacturer. An individual's idea of acceptable performance and/or durability may differ from that of the OEM. For some folks it's at 80%, others will pull 1 1/2 times a truck's GCWR and not think twice about it.A somewhat separate issue discussed ad nauseum on this forum is the fact that in some cases a truck will be overloaded in terms of GVWR or GAWR long before its rated GCWR is reached, and other trucks will hit their GCWR with plenty of gross and axle weight to spare. The moral of the story is that all the various capacities of each truck must be evaluated against a specific trailer to determine whether it's a good fit.

How do you really judge TV adequacy anymore? | Good Sam Community

PA12DRVR
Explorer
Sep 13, 2019
"I can fly from here to Omaha in a Cessna or a 737. Both are rated to haul me there. The Cessna will not do it just as good even though it will do it just fine."

Made the Omaha - Spokane trip in Cessna 180 back in the day. Enjoyable in many ways, but for repeat-ability, I preferred the same trip in the 737 / DeHavilland combo that the airline offered.

Similarly, while pulling my boat is within the calculated capacities of my new-ish Toyota...its just a better experience in my old-ish 2500HD; even though the capacities calculate out to be closer than I'd have thought.
troubledwaters
Explorer III
Sep 13, 2019
IdaD wrote:
troubledwaters wrote:
IdaD wrote:
troubledwaters wrote:
There is no evidence to indicate an F150 can't tow all day every day within its tow ratings without incurring any more adverse effects than a F350 would at the comparable duty point.

This is the comment that everybody is calling BS on. Throw a 10k lb trailer behind an F150 and the same behind and F350 and there's no question which truck will wear better over time.
Maybe it wasn't clear, "Comparable duty point" was intended to mean an F150 operating at 100% of its tow rating (or whatever parameter you want to compare) compared to a F350 operating at 100% of its tow rating ( or whatever rating you're comparing). 100% vs. 100%

Okay I did read that wrong and that does make your point more defensible. I still don't agree with it in a lot of cases, though. My 2500 has mostly the same components as a same year DRW 3500...which would make me think there's quite a bit of cushion built into the ratings on my truck. I also think heavy duty trucks are built to a higher standard in terms of expected duty cycle. Same deal when you go to a MDT...and so on as you move up the food chain.
Yes I will concede that what you are saying about cushion etc. is probably a valid point. My statement was too overly broad.
Groover
Explorer II
Sep 13, 2019
I have always felt that most people put too much emphasis on towing ability and not enough on stopping ability. With any vehicle that has a GVWR 3 or more times its GCWR it is obvious that you are not going to be able to stop in a hurry without good trailer brakes. Good tow vehicle brakes are good but without good trailer brakes you will never be able to stop properly. I have been towing over 40 years and have never had a case where my life depended on forward progress but have had many cases where being able to stop was vital.

This is one area where class 6 and up vehicles have a clear advantage. Generally they are much heavier, have a lot of the trailer weight on the tow vehicle adding traction and have less horse power so that they can't be hotrodded so much. One the other hand, my experience with non-commercial trailer brakes has been disappointing and sometimes scary. On my heaviest trailer I gave up on electric drum brakes and bought a new one with electric over hydraulic disc brakes (at a considerable expense). They are much better but still suffer from a short delay and depend on a link to the tow vehicle that could fail without warning. I feel like we need to pause our examination of tow vehicles and take a good look trailer brake systems, especially considering how highway speeds have increased the past 30 years. For starters all new trailers with an axle rating over 2,000lbs should at least come with brake mounting plates so that brakes can easily be added. All trailers with an axle rating over 3,000lbs should come with brakes, not just de-rated to 2,990lbs so that technically they are exempt. And this especially includes rental tow dollys that are fully expected to go way over 3,000lbs when the payload is included.

Let's look at the big picture instead of beating one issue senseless on a regular basis.
IdaD
Explorer
Sep 13, 2019
troubledwaters wrote:
IdaD wrote:
troubledwaters wrote:
There is no evidence to indicate an F150 can't tow all day every day within its tow ratings without incurring any more adverse effects than a F350 would at the comparable duty point.

This is the comment that everybody is calling BS on. Throw a 10k lb trailer behind an F150 and the same behind and F350 and there's no question which truck will wear better over time.
Maybe it wasn't clear, "Comparable duty point" was intended to mean an F150 operating at 100% of its tow rating (or whatever parameter you want to compare) compared to a F350 operating at 100% of its tow rating ( or whatever rating you're comparing). 100% vs. 100%

Okay I did read that wrong and that does make your point more defensible. I still don't agree with it in a lot of cases, though. My 2500 has mostly the same components as a same year DRW 3500...which would make me think there's quite a bit of cushion built into the ratings on my truck. I also think heavy duty trucks are built to a higher standard in terms of expected duty cycle. Same deal when you go to a MDT...and so on as you move up the food chain.
demiles
Explorer
Sep 13, 2019
People need to understand what the j2807 standard is that’s used to set the rating. It’s a standardized test performed wth very specific equipment under very specific conditions with very specific rules. The average consumer will not operate the vehicle under those conditions with the same equipment. Once the trailer, loading, and road conditions change so does how the vehicle performs. The test is to determine the maximum trailer tow weight which not how you would what to tow a RV across country. A good way to judge TV capability for RVs is to stay away from the maximum pin/hitch weight and apply the recommended hitch and pin weight requirements for the trailer type.
Me_Again
Explorer III
Sep 13, 2019
BenK wrote:
It’s like trying to explain sex to a virgin....

How old was the young lady that explained it to you?
BenK
Explorer
Sep 13, 2019
It’s like trying to explain sex to a virgin....
Huntindog
Explorer
Sep 13, 2019
troubledwaters wrote:
IdaD wrote:
troubledwaters wrote:
There is no evidence to indicate an F150 can't tow all day every day within its tow ratings without incurring any more adverse effects than a F350 would at the comparable duty point.

This is the comment that everybody is calling BS on. Throw a 10k lb trailer behind an F150 and the same behind and F350 and there's no question which truck will wear better over time.
Maybe it wasn't clear, "Comparable duty point" was intended to mean an F150 operating at 100% of its tow rating (or whatever parameter you want to compare) compared to a F350 operating at 100% of its tow rating ( or whatever rating you're comparing). 100% vs. 100%

I think the point you are missing is “Duty Point” the one ton would need to be towing at near their max tow rating. Likely in the 20,000# range.

Wait just a minute.... Did this not start out as a thread touting 1/2 ton capabilities that were equal or better than some of their HD counterparts?

And once that argument fell flat, now the argument is changing.

I see how it is.

Go back and reread the first post.
rhagfo
Explorer III
Sep 13, 2019
IdaD wrote:
troubledwaters wrote:
There is no evidence to indicate an F150 can't tow all day every day within its tow ratings without incurring any more adverse effects than a F350 would at the comparable duty point.

This is the comment that everybody is calling BS on. Throw a 10k lb trailer behind an F150 and the same behind and F350 and there's no question which truck will wear better over time.

I think the point you are missing is “Duty Point” the one ton would need to be towing at near their max tow rating. Likely in the 20,000# range.
Bert_Ackerman
Explorer
Sep 13, 2019
Bert Ackerman wrote:
troubledwaters wrote:
Bert Ackerman wrote:
troubledwaters wrote:
Bert Ackerman wrote:
..If anyone believes a 1500 truck is just as capable because it has the same or more payload as a 2500 truck, or based any other number like tow ratings, or has some super duper package, they're living in Fantasyland.
Or maybe you're living in fantasyland. A F150/1500 truck is just as capable of towing within its tow rating as a F350/3500 is of towing within its ratings. I believe all models are now tested and rated per J2807 standard.

I knew better than to get involved in this foolishness. You all have fun hashing it out, I'm going down to the bar and see if I can get an early bird special on happy hour.
There is nothing more that needs to be hashed out. The trucks are tested and rated per the standard. Enjoy your beer.

I think it's more than safe to bet that this thread will still be getting hashed 90 days from now. The Beer is cold, the Bourbon divine.

Still Hashin...................ROFLMDO......TV Adequacy? More like TV Lunacy.