Is the RV industry is broken? Warranty for new trailers...

[mike_mn]

This post is going to come across as a rant, but I have let this now resolved issue simmer for the whole season and feel like I can be reflective and possibly encouraging to others going through tough warranty issues with their new trailers.

For those with short attention span, below is the complaint logged with BBB that finally resolved my axle issue. For the rest, you can read on past the break if you need some encouragement to keep pushing for resolution on your issue.

-5/17/14-Purchase date of brand new 2015 Puma 30DBSS from Noble RV in Jordan, MN (Puma dealership)
-5/28-Noticed extensive tire wear on the left rear tire after our first 300 mile camping trip and immediately notified salesman over email and was told to bring the trailer in for this and other minor repairs found in the first trip.
-~5/29 or 5/31-Dropped off trailer for evaluation. Former service manager told me he felt confident the tire wear is a warranty issue.
-Approx 6/17-Picked up trailer for next camping trip. Told they were unable to evaluate in the 2 weeks they had it.
-After next trip, dropped off again and was told the mechanic said the axle is misaligned. Service manager recommended I schedule time with another location in Owatonna where the alignment rack is located.
-Approx 7/5-Picked up camper again for a trip.
-Approx 7/14-Called to schedule when axle could be realigned. service manager had been fired and now talking to new service manager. Both new service manager and his mechanic claimed to know nothing about previous axle issues with my camper.
-Approx 7-10 days later the trailer was evaluated. After spending a number of hours on my behalf providing pictures and measurements, the frame manufacturer Lippert believes this tire wear was caused by hitting a curb. This was a concerning respons since all photographic evidence provided to lippert did not support that there was any impacts on the left rear tire or rim.
-After conversations on 8/6 with service manager, 8/11 and 8/12 with the GM of the Jordan location I was very concerned this issue would not be resolved. I was told i am fully responsible to pay for a replacement axle and its installation. ~$1400
-On 8/13 Noble sent me the pictures and measurements they provided to Lippert.
-8/18 and 8/19 I spoke to Bill Baker, the puma warranty manager. The result of this conversation was Puma would ship out a replacement axle at no charge.
-9/9-received email from Noble Service manager that axle had arrived at the dealership.
-Approximately 9/26-Phone call with service manager telling me that Palomino/Puma is not going to pay to install the axle. They also told me Noble is not willing to install the axle free, but would charge me a reduced rate of $339(plus shop supplies) to install the axle.
The only satisfactory resolution in this case is a no cost proper installation of the replacement axle and wheels already provided for this trailer that was originally purchased with a defective axle.
-Feb 2015 - Contacted Noble Service manager to make sure that no one was still going to cover the install labor for the axle they have waiting to be installed in my trailer.

I filed my BBB complaint in feb/march 2015 after letting the winter pass me by and trying to ignore that I hated my new trailer because of what the dealer, Lippert and Puma were putting me through...

After being contacted by the BBB, the puma service manager Bill Baker contacted me surprised, because he thought this issue had been resolved after our last conversation. He told me it would be taken care of. It is unfortunate that he was the person telling Noble RV that Puma wasnt going to pay for the installation of the axle...Anyways, the axle was finally installed free of charge this spring prior to my first camping of the season and surprisingly enough, we made it through our entire season without any strange wear on any of the tires...imagine that...
_____________________________________________________________________

Now I am going to go over the reasons why I believe that the RV industry is broken.

One major thing I learned through this process is that the RV dealer is just a parts broker. They sell a pile of parts that were assembled at a manufacturer. The dealer does not work on behalf of the dealer or the parts suppliers unless previously directed. i.e. the warranty decision for anything on the trailer is up to the part supplier. frame, appliances, electrical among other things are all warranted by their specific suppliers. Your RV dealer may or may not work on your behalf for resolve of warranty claims that the part supplier may deny. Your RV manufacturer may or may not work on your behalf for resolve of warranty claims that the part supplier may deny. KNOW THAT YOU ARE ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE TO FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO WARRANTY ON YOUR NEW TRAILER. Don't just assume the dealer or manufacturer has done everything possible to resolve your issue.

Recommendations for new trailer buyers.
-Keep all of the warranty documentation for your trailer where you can find it.
-Document all contact with your dealer or others. it makes your case stronger if you can document who said what when.
-When in doubt call the boss. If dealing with service manager, talk to general manager. If talking to warranty manager, talk to his/her boss, or go to the parent company warranty manager. You can always look up the parent company or part company main phone line and ask for warranty manager.
-If all else fails, BBB is your friend, but just stick with the facts. I have a whole bunch of other complaints about how my dealer handled me a customer, but that is for another thread. Leave out the drama in your complaint.

The majority of new trailer purchases go without much drama. We are 1 for 2 on new trailer purchases(our Roo was great!). I am hoping that we have had our fill of warranty drama forevermore after this...

Happy Camping

Mike

[myredracer]

rbpru wrote:
Yep, since they are all piece of junk frames. That is why they sell 300,000 a year.

I guess 299,999 people haven't figured it out yet.

Go figure.

And just how do you know that there aren't serious frames problems? There have been many cases out there of entire TTs being replaced due to irreparable frame issues. Same with other serious irreparable problems like water leakage for example. The reason you don't ever hear about them is because the owners are required to sign a confidentiality agreement and are not permitted to disclose anything about it to anyone. Besides that, a very, very small percentage of RV owners use RV forums. You clearly don't know what can go wrong with frames and the serious nature of the issues.

The worst frames are on ultralites that have the weak 3-piece fabricated I-beams found on a number of brands and models. All too often, owners don't find out about the problems until well after the warranty has expired. The worst case I know of is where the frame on someone's TT folded like a pretzel above the axles and the rear of the trailer was dragging on the ground.

[westend]

mike_mn wrote:

westend wrote:
All the mfg's have to do is go back to a fully boxed frame rail. That will add weight, of course and is not a market trend.

I generally never think that anything I do online ever finds me back in my little town of Shorewood, MN. Then a random poster on RV.net from our little town of 7k or so humans posts to my thread...nice to see you here. Sweet little project you have going on in your signature line.

Hey Mike,
Yup, small world. We've been Shorewoodian's for about 28 years and RV'ers/campers for even longer.

I don't really have a dog in this fight but I commend you for posting up the particulars of your issues with Noble and the Mfg. Your conclusions about the relationships of customer-dealer-mfg are spot on, IMO. It's good to hear that someone who entered that long, frustrating abyss that is "warranty", came out with a good resolution.

[myredracer]

deltabravo wrote:


Where is the information that shows Lippert owns Dexter?

Not sure what I was thinking when I wrote that. I should have said Lippert purchased the frame division from Dexter. Dexter bought Alko and I think are now called Industrial Axle. Dexter used to supply frames to Jayco but now appear to have switched over to Bal/Norco - maybe they did not like Lippert frames.

[Cmore12]

The advice for documenting EVERYTHING is spot on. Fortunately, the issues for our '12 Tiffin have been minor & resolved quickly. A call to the factory regarding a panel full of rocker switches got me an offer saying they've had problems with that manufacturer; come to Red Bay, AL and we'll fix 'em for free. I'm a DIY-er 2000 miles away, so they sent me a box and instructions how to fix. Awesome. Our new stick-built is another story. Not enough electrons in this computer to list the issues. It's not just the RV industry; it's poor business practices focusing on this quarter's profit. We just have to hold them accountable and elevate the issue until resolved. As long as I have a hot spot/WI-FI, I'll solve 'em while sitting in a national park. Best blood pressure medicine ever.

-Dale
Wiring a new Jeep toad is tough; dang they're built tight.

[deltabravo]

myredracer wrote:
Sadly, Lippert owns the vast majority of the RV frame industry (95% or more??) and now owns Dexter AND Alko.

Where is the information that shows Lippert owns Dexter?

[rbpru]

Yep, since they are all piece of junk frames. That is why they sell 300,000 a year.

I guess 299,999 people haven't figured it out yet.

Go figure.

[mike_mn]

westend wrote:
All the mfg's have to do is go back to a fully boxed frame rail. That will add weight, of course and is not a market trend.

I generally never think that anything I do online ever finds me back in my little town of Shorewood, MN. Then a random poster on RV.net from our little town of 7k or so humans posts to my thread...nice to see you here. Sweet little project you have going on in your signature line.

[westend]

All the mfg's have to do is go back to a fully boxed frame rail. That will add weight, of course and is not a market trend.

[myredracer]

ReferDog wrote:
Amen. You have accurately describe the RV industry. Lippert is huge supplier of junk for the RV industry, who under most instances will not warranty or listen to any complaint.

Them's pretty strong words, but I totally agree. 🙂

I have experience the same on a axel issue although, not under warranty wouldn't listen to my experience. $1000 to get frame rail repaired that cracked.
They now have become so large that they don't have to much, even Northwoods ( Artic Fox). buys there stuff.

Northwood actually builds there own frame in-house and they get it off-road certified (to what specs. I don't know). The frame is used on Nash, Outdoors RV and Arctic Fox. Very nice looking frames. I think Jayco may have switched over to the BAL/Norco Ultraframe which has no welding on it. Also a very nice looking frame. Have seen it on 2 of their models now. Lance also uses the BAL frame. If we ever get another TT, it would have to be a non-Lippert frame one.

Sadly, Lippert owns the vast majority of the RV frame industry (95% or more??) and now owns Dexter AND Alko. BTW, it's easy to spot a BAL frame in a CG or at an RV show as they have the coupler mounted to the underside of the A-frame.

When it comes to frames, suspensions and tires, that's a public safety issue and something I think should have regulatory standards. It would be nice to see a frame with a sticker on that states the max. GVWR for it and maybe o/a length. Axles have ratings and lots of detail specs available, but I'm not sure if they're built to an industry standard of any kind?

[ReferDog]

Amen. You have accurately describe the RV industry. Lippert is huge supplier of junk for the RV industry, who under most instances will not warranty or listen to any complaint. I have experience the same on a axel issue although, not under warranty wouldn't listen to my experience. $1000 to get frame rail repaired that cracked.
They now have become so large that they don't have to much, even Northwoods ( Artic Fox). buys there stuff.

[jmcgsd]

I can only speak to one manufacturer, Lance Campers. I bought a new Lance 981Max truck camper in 2005. Like anything new and complicated there were some issues. The first was the Coleman A/C. From the first it would not blow cold air. you could hear the compressor turn on, but warm air came out the vents. The obvious solution would have been to replace the unit, but unfortunately that was right after Katrina and literally every availble unit was being shipped to equip TTs for the disaster.

Lance didn't hesitate to authorie ny selling dealer to take the camper to a service center where a valve could be installed that would allow the coolant to be reloaded. After that no more A/C issues for the nine years I owned the camper.

The 2nd issue occorued about six months later. The Norcold reefer quit working. That warranty was covered by Norcold and they authorized one of their factory centers to fix the problem. The control board was replaced and the reefer worked perfectly from that point forward.

At that time the warranty period on a Lance was two years. About 20 months after purchase the Auto Transfer switch for the genny quit. The generator would come on but there was no power. My dealership had closed in the bust of the RV industry and the Lance dealership was now run by an outfit that I had no reason to trust. When I called that outfit they said the ATS was part of the generator and needed to be serviced by Onan. I knew that was BS so I called Lance. I am about four hours drive from their plant in Lancaster CA. They asked if I would like to bring it there. I said sure, why not, and they made me an appointment.

I showed up late in the day before I was scheduled. They had parking places outside with 30 Amp hookups, so I spent the night there. When they opened in the morrning there was a knock on my door. A technician with a clipboard was outside and he had a list of EVERY call ever made to Lance about my camper! He came in, inspected the camper and noted some problems that I had not even realized I had. For example, the carpet was chafing under the slide and the slide was not closing properly.

Two hours later the camper was returned to me with the ATS fixed and all other minor issues resolved! I cannot even imagine finer service.

[rbpru]

You will not change the RV industry until or unless the public agrees or is forced to pay much more for their RV.

People need and use the automobiles daily; so years ago when higher quality cars hit the market people accepted the change, even if they had to pay more.

The RV is a hobby or leisure option item that the folks want or are willing to accept at the current quality level.

The RV manufacturers produce what sells, if the government or customer base demands higher standards; they will pass the cost on to the customer. Since the profit mark-up is a portion of the total cost, that is not such a bad deal for the industry.

We gets what we pays for.

[myredracer]

Great to hear that you eventually got a resolution.

The entire RV industry is like no other. It's like an insider's old boy's club that only cares about themselves. Besides that, the delivery guys abuse the TTs during delivery by hitting potholes, etc. and going over 65 mph and not having tires inflated correctly.

To me, the reason that frames and suspensions have problems is the total lack of industry standards. No SAE, no ASME, no nothing. Lippert can build the frames however they want to without having to answer to anyone. It's ridiculous. If something goes wrong, their party line response is "you overloaded it" or "it's within specs.". If there were standards, and something was wrong, you'd be able to go to the gov't and file a complaint and get something done. The really sad thing is that many frame, suspension and tire issues don't manifest themselves until past the warranty and you are screwed.

It's not entirely Lippert's fault though as the RV manufacturers tell Lippert how they want the frame built so they're both responsible. The substandard welding you'll find is Lippert's fault of course!

We have been through a very serious frame issue before so I know how bad it can be. Found out the day after we got it something was wrong (by accident too). We initially got the "it's within spec." response. Then went to a certified frame shop and sent the report to the dealer and manufacturer and only then got something done. Took about 9 months overall to resolve. Shouldn't ever have to do that.

I was looking at a Keystone 31' TT recently. The 14" tires on it were maxed to their load capacity based on the GVWR. Axle rating also maxed out. Has the same crappy frame as we had with our problem TT and to make things worse, has spread axles. It's a case of when it will have major problems, not if. Hard to believe they would do this, but again, no industry standards to say they can't.

After having owned 3 TTs in 3 years, I've become a hardened and cynical RV owner. I could write a book at this point...

The best advice I can give anyone is when you buy a new TT, take it to a scale on the way home. Then take it to a certified (or equiv.) frame shop right away and get the frame & suspension inspected and get a report (maybe around $200). Then weigh it again after it's all loaded up for camping. 'Course, almost nobody would do that.

[deltabravo]

This reminds me of a similar type issue with my truck - dealer did body damage to it, never told me. They referred me to their collision center. Collision center fix the damage, but did even more body damage back in July and still deny ever doing the damage or fixing it, even after I showed them exactly how they did the damage to it.


NEVER do business with ANY AutoNation affiliated car/truck dealer, PERIOD!!!