Is the RV industry is broken? Warranty for new trailers...

[mike_mn]

This post is going to come across as a rant, but I have let this now resolved issue simmer for the whole season and feel like I can be reflective and possibly encouraging to others going through tough warranty issues with their new trailers.

For those with short attention span, below is the complaint logged with BBB that finally resolved my axle issue. For the rest, you can read on past the break if you need some encouragement to keep pushing for resolution on your issue.

-5/17/14-Purchase date of brand new 2015 Puma 30DBSS from Noble RV in Jordan, MN (Puma dealership)
-5/28-Noticed extensive tire wear on the left rear tire after our first 300 mile camping trip and immediately notified salesman over email and was told to bring the trailer in for this and other minor repairs found in the first trip.
-~5/29 or 5/31-Dropped off trailer for evaluation. Former service manager told me he felt confident the tire wear is a warranty issue.
-Approx 6/17-Picked up trailer for next camping trip. Told they were unable to evaluate in the 2 weeks they had it.
-After next trip, dropped off again and was told the mechanic said the axle is misaligned. Service manager recommended I schedule time with another location in Owatonna where the alignment rack is located.
-Approx 7/5-Picked up camper again for a trip.
-Approx 7/14-Called to schedule when axle could be realigned. service manager had been fired and now talking to new service manager. Both new service manager and his mechanic claimed to know nothing about previous axle issues with my camper.
-Approx 7-10 days later the trailer was evaluated. After spending a number of hours on my behalf providing pictures and measurements, the frame manufacturer Lippert believes this tire wear was caused by hitting a curb. This was a concerning respons since all photographic evidence provided to lippert did not support that there was any impacts on the left rear tire or rim.
-After conversations on 8/6 with service manager, 8/11 and 8/12 with the GM of the Jordan location I was very concerned this issue would not be resolved. I was told i am fully responsible to pay for a replacement axle and its installation. ~$1400
-On 8/13 Noble sent me the pictures and measurements they provided to Lippert.
-8/18 and 8/19 I spoke to Bill Baker, the puma warranty manager. The result of this conversation was Puma would ship out a replacement axle at no charge.
-9/9-received email from Noble Service manager that axle had arrived at the dealership.
-Approximately 9/26-Phone call with service manager telling me that Palomino/Puma is not going to pay to install the axle. They also told me Noble is not willing to install the axle free, but would charge me a reduced rate of $339(plus shop supplies) to install the axle.
The only satisfactory resolution in this case is a no cost proper installation of the replacement axle and wheels already provided for this trailer that was originally purchased with a defective axle.
-Feb 2015 - Contacted Noble Service manager to make sure that no one was still going to cover the install labor for the axle they have waiting to be installed in my trailer.

I filed my BBB complaint in feb/march 2015 after letting the winter pass me by and trying to ignore that I hated my new trailer because of what the dealer, Lippert and Puma were putting me through...

After being contacted by the BBB, the puma service manager Bill Baker contacted me surprised, because he thought this issue had been resolved after our last conversation. He told me it would be taken care of. It is unfortunate that he was the person telling Noble RV that Puma wasnt going to pay for the installation of the axle...Anyways, the axle was finally installed free of charge this spring prior to my first camping of the season and surprisingly enough, we made it through our entire season without any strange wear on any of the tires...imagine that...
_____________________________________________________________________

Now I am going to go over the reasons why I believe that the RV industry is broken.

One major thing I learned through this process is that the RV dealer is just a parts broker. They sell a pile of parts that were assembled at a manufacturer. The dealer does not work on behalf of the dealer or the parts suppliers unless previously directed. i.e. the warranty decision for anything on the trailer is up to the part supplier. frame, appliances, electrical among other things are all warranted by their specific suppliers. Your RV dealer may or may not work on your behalf for resolve of warranty claims that the part supplier may deny. Your RV manufacturer may or may not work on your behalf for resolve of warranty claims that the part supplier may deny. KNOW THAT YOU ARE ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE TO FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO WARRANTY ON YOUR NEW TRAILER. Don't just assume the dealer or manufacturer has done everything possible to resolve your issue.

Recommendations for new trailer buyers.
-Keep all of the warranty documentation for your trailer where you can find it.
-Document all contact with your dealer or others. it makes your case stronger if you can document who said what when.
-When in doubt call the boss. If dealing with service manager, talk to general manager. If talking to warranty manager, talk to his/her boss, or go to the parent company warranty manager. You can always look up the parent company or part company main phone line and ask for warranty manager.
-If all else fails, BBB is your friend, but just stick with the facts. I have a whole bunch of other complaints about how my dealer handled me a customer, but that is for another thread. Leave out the drama in your complaint.

The majority of new trailer purchases go without much drama. We are 1 for 2 on new trailer purchases(our Roo was great!). I am hoping that we have had our fill of warranty drama forevermore after this...

Happy Camping

Mike

[Drbolasky]

rbpru wrote:
It seems the problems are more assembly related than design. Just plain careless assembly and poor quality control.

The auto industry tackled the problem decades ago.

The domestic auto industry was forced to address the problem when imports started to cut in to the sales of the Big 3.

Good thread. Should be required reading for anybody looking to purchase.

[rbpru]

It seems the problems are more assembly related than design. Just plain careless assembly and poor quality control.

The auto industry tackled the problem decades ago. It only doubled the price.

Not likely to happen in the TT market.

[mike_mn]

icanon wrote:

mike_mn wrote:
I have a huge complaint post that was drafted about 6 months ago that I never posted about my numerous issues with Noble RV. My previous experience with Niemeyers who sold me my Roo was night and day different in a positive way.

\

SO Noble RV wasn't so noble after all?

They probably just need more cowbell...

[icanon]

mike_mn wrote:
I have a huge complaint post that was drafted about 6 months ago that I never posted about my numerous issues with Noble RV. My previous experience with Niemeyers who sold me my Roo was night and day different in a positive way.

\

SO Noble RV wasn't so noble after all?

[mike_mn]

B.O. Plenty wrote:
I think the majority of your problems stem from the dealer you bought it from. I bought a trailer from them in 2010. After waiting several weeks for an appointment I brought it to their Owatonna store for some work. After they had it for a couple weeks only 1/2 of what was needed was done. They replace a warped cabinet door with a new one...only it had a different pattern and finish, so they put it on anyway, right next to one that was different. They never mentioned it..several other things were poorly done. I picked it up, the mfg shipped me the correct parts and I finished it myself. I told them I wasn't coming back...ever. They called me a few months later and said my "parts" were in. I told them I had said I was never coming back. They asked me what they should do with the parts...I won't say what I told them. How can you run a business that way??? I learned my lesson...

B.O.

I appreciate your response. I have a huge complaint post that was drafted about 6 months ago that I never posted about my numerous issues with Noble RV. My previous experience with Niemeyers who sold me my Roo was night and day different in a positive way. I have been shocked at every turn when dealing with Noble since the very first visit.

Something I didn't mention in the post before, but I have come to the conclusion that there is no benefit to shopping with your local dealer. Places like RVW will have my full attention, if/when I ever purchase another new trailer. I am happy to do warranty work myself if the mfg sends me parts. I am just not going to rebuild the frame or axles on my time/dime...

[icanon]

I had a problem with tires on my Amerilite a couple years back bought it drove it back home about 100miles from dealers the following weekend the family and I drove to Maine and put a couple hundred of miles. The tires were worn with chunks missing sent an email to the MGR and they told me send photos and explanation.
Sent photos and stated I was scared for my family's safety let alone others on the road and had replaced them but kept one tire for proof and photos of the remaining tires. They in return ask for tire codes and s/n and said they will get back to me. Two weeks later a cheque was in the mail for tires minus the taxes and tire disposal fees. I couldn't be happier I thought I'd never get a reply let a lone a cheque.

[B_O__Plenty]

I think the majority of your problems stem from the dealer you bought it from. I bought a trailer from them in 2010. After waiting several weeks for an appointment I brought it to their Owatonna store for some work. After they had it for a couple weeks only 1/2 of what was needed was done. They replace a warped cabinet door with a new one...only it had a different pattern and finish, so they put it on anyway, right next to one that was different. They never mentioned it..several other things were poorly done. I picked it up, the mfg shipped me the correct parts and I finished it myself. I told them I wasn't coming back...ever. They called me a few months later and said my "parts" were in. I told them I had said I was never coming back. They asked me what they should do with the parts...I won't say what I told them. How can you run a business that way??? I learned my lesson...

B.O.

[gmw_photos]

Campfire Time wrote:
I had a conversation with our dealer's owner in '03 when we purchased our previous trailer. His assessment at the time was that the RV industry was very immature compared to the auto industry. 12 years later and nothing has changed.

There is only one thing that would force the RV industry to change. Everyone has to refuse to purchase until the industry stands behind what it sells. No sales = no money. But we as consumers are going to keep buying, thus giving the industry no incentive to change.

....and to this point, I have made the following observation in other threads like this: in time, the quality control will get ramped up, and the product will be better. BUT....the price will also go up as a result. Personally, being "frugal", and two, having a full shop and a full complement of tools here at home, I would happily tell "all" of them....keep your warranty, kick back a few hundred dollars to me at time of sale. I'll self insure, and take it from you as is.
If I could have done that on each and every new car, truck, trailer, boat and motorcycle I have bought since the late 1960's, I'd be way ahead on the $$. In total, my entire life, I have had way less than $500 worth of warranty repair work done. So to me, it means almost nothing.

Some of this comes from our personal background and perspective. I grew up poor, in the 50's and early 60's, and did not even know what a warranty meant. We got everything used. Second, I cut my teeth in my early driving days with used british sports cars and unreliable second hand motorcycles.
"Everything" I've had since then has been a dozen times more reliable. Growing up with junk, we learned how to fix everything ourselves.

[Coolerman]

I have been blessed with owning two campers. The StarCraft had some issues that showed up on our first camping trip, but I was able to fix/resolve them myself.

The new Sonic just got back from a 2600 mile round trip to Colorado with ZERO issues. Due to the dealer for the Sonic being 150 miles away, I will fix anything that goes wrong with it, unless it's major.

Full report coming soon...

[Campfire_Time]

I had a conversation with our dealer's owner in '03 when we purchased our previous trailer. His assessment at the time was that the RV industry was very immature compared to the auto industry. 12 years later and nothing has changed.

There is only one thing that would force the RV industry to change. Everyone has to refuse to purchase until the industry stands behind what it sells. No sales = no money. But we as consumers are going to keep buying, thus giving the industry no incentive to change.

[mike_mn]

gmw photos wrote:
Mike, I have to say my hat is off to you for having the patience and fortitude to hold their feet to the fire.
If it would have been mine, I would have taken it to a "real" trailer shop here in town, had them bend/align the axle to correct it. Then I would have proceeded to take the ( likely ) ST tires off, replace them with LT.....and gone camping.

As to whether the RV industry is broken, well, based on the fact that sales are up in recent years, at least from a business standpoint ( remember, the purpose of the business is to make money for the company and it's shareholders ), I'd say it's not only "not broken", I'd say it's chugging along very well.

I just want to travel and camp, I don't want to mess about with incompetent dealers, stubborn manufacturers, and driving back and forth to a dealer. So I just fix this stuff myself, and then use the camper. Many will say I'm part of the problem. Could be. But still, I'll leave to you guys to fight the good fight. I'll be at the CG.

Clarification on the broken comment. Broken doesn't necessarily mean lack of profitability. The industry is broken because of things like this that should be able to be avoided, partly due lack of accountability and choice(Lippert). There are really only a few real RV manufacturers anymore and most of those manufacturers use the same part suppliers...Dometic, Lippert Etc...

The telecom industry was "broken" literally and figuratively 30 years ago because it was a monopoly not because it was unprofitable. It is one of the reasons we have a choice of cell phone carriers today...

I am a DIY guy and do my repairs myself. I am very stingy and refuse to pay money or spend my time for something that should be free. Keep in mind, throughout this whole ordeal, we didn't miss one camping trip. There would have been a whole lot faster resolve if I had missed even one trip.

[beemerphile1]

mike_mn wrote:
This post is going to come across as a rant, but I have let this now resolved issue simmer for the whole season and feel like I can be reflective and possibly encouraging to others going through tough warranty issues with their new trailers.

For those with short attention span, below is the complaint logged with BBB that finally resolved my axle issue. For the rest, you can read on past the break if you need some encouragement to keep pushing for resolution on your issue.

-5/17/14-Purchase date of brand new 2015 Puma 30DBSS from Noble RV in Jordan, MN (Puma dealership)
-5/28-Noticed extensive tire wear on the left rear tire after our first 300 mile camping trip and immediately notified salesman over email and was told to bring the trailer in for this and other minor repairs found in the first trip.
-~5/29 or 5/31-Dropped off trailer for evaluation. Former service manager told me he felt confident the tire wear is a warranty issue.
-Approx 6/17-Picked up trailer for next camping trip. Told they were unable to evaluate in the 2 weeks they had it.
-After next trip, dropped off again and was told the mechanic said the axle is misaligned. Service manager recommended I schedule time with another location in Owatonna where the alignment rack is located.
-Approx 7/5-Picked up camper again for a trip.
-Approx 7/14-Called to schedule when axle could be realigned. service manager had been fired and now talking to new service manager. Both new service manager and his mechanic claimed to know nothing about previous axle issues with my camper.
-Approx 7-10 days later the trailer was evaluated. After spending a number of hours on my behalf providing pictures and measurements, the frame manufacturer Lippert believes this tire wear was caused by hitting a curb. This was a concerning respons since all photographic evidence provided to lippert did not support that there was any impacts on the left rear tire or rim.
-After conversations on 8/6 with service manager, 8/11 and 8/12 with the GM of the Jordan location I was very concerned this issue would not be resolved. I was told i am fully responsible to pay for a replacement axle and its installation. ~$1400
-On 8/13 Noble sent me the pictures and measurements they provided to Lippert.
-8/18 and 8/19 I spoke to Bill Baker, the puma warranty manager. The result of this conversation was Puma would ship out a replacement axle at no charge.
-9/9-received email from Noble Service manager that axle had arrived at the dealership.
-Approximately 9/26-Phone call with service manager telling me that Palomino/Puma is not going to pay to install the axle. They also told me Noble is not willing to install the axle free, but would charge me a reduced rate of $339(plus shop supplies) to install the axle.
The only satisfactory resolution in this case is a no cost proper installation of the replacement axle and wheels already provided for this trailer that was originally purchased with a defective axle.
-Feb 2015 - Contacted Noble Service manager to make sure that no one was still going to cover the install labor for the axle they have waiting to be installed in my trailer.

I filed my BBB complaint in feb/march 2015 after letting the winter pass me by and trying to ignore that I hated my new trailer because of what the dealer, Lippert and Puma were putting me through...

After being contacted by the BBB, the puma service manager Bill Baker contacted me surprised, because he thought this issue had been resolved after our last conversation. He told me it would be taken care of. It is unfortunate that he was the person telling Noble RV that Puma wasnt going to pay for the installation of the axle...Anyways, the axle was finally installed free of charge this spring prior to my first camping of the season and surprisingly enough, we made it through our entire season without any strange wear on any of the tires...imagine that...
_____________________________________________________________________

Now I am going to go over the reasons why I believe that the RV industry is broken.

One major thing I learned through this process is that the RV dealer is just a parts broker. They sell a pile of parts that were assembled at a manufacturer. The dealer does not work on behalf of the dealer or the parts suppliers unless previously directed. i.e. the warranty decision for anything on the trailer is up to the part supplier. frame, appliances, electrical among other things are all warranted by their specific suppliers. Your RV dealer may or may not work on your behalf for resolve of warranty claims that the part supplier may deny. Your RV manufacturer may or may not work on your behalf for resolve of warranty claims that the part supplier may deny. KNOW THAT YOU ARE ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE TO FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO WARRANTY ON YOUR NEW TRAILER. Don't just assume the dealer or manufacturer has done everything possible to resolve your issue.

Recommendations for new trailer buyers.
-Keep all of the warranty documentation for your trailer where you can find it.
-Document all contact with your dealer or others. it makes your case stronger if you can document who said what when.
-When in doubt call the boss. If dealing with service manager, talk to general manager. If talking to warranty manager, talk to his/her boss, or go to the parent company warranty manager. You can always look up the parent company or part company main phone line and ask for warranty manager.
-If all else fails, BBB is your friend, but just stick with the facts. I have a whole bunch of other complaints about how my dealer handled me a customer, but that is for another thread. Leave out the drama in your complaint.

The majority of new trailer purchases go without much drama. We are 1 for 2 on new trailer purchases(our Roo was great!). I am hoping that we have had our fill of warranty drama forevermore after this...

Happy Camping

Mike

I have to agree with your conclusions. I would also note that Lippert seems to be the source of many complaints of shoddy workmanship and claims denial. The RV manufacturers need to stand up to Lippert and either produce frames in house or find a competitor to do business with. As it is right now, Lippert is the gorilla with all the market share and power to do as they please.

[fla-gypsy]

Very salient points by all. I would add for serious issues go to the manufacturer first. If you don't trust your dealer or doubt their expertise to do it right request from the manufacturer the name of a repair facility that can. Keep meticulous records with photos and leave out the drama as the OP has stated. Be firm and insistent but polite/professional. Drama and passion will get you nothing!

[Old-Biscuit]

Like you say
Dealers are not part of MFGs. They sell several brands and are just retail outlets.
MFGs. are the ones providing warranty and Dealers get to do approved warranty repairs. All components (appliances, landing gear, roof fans/A-C Units etc.) also have their own warranties.

I have found best service by contacting MFG and getting a Representative involved so that they get a direct perspective of issue vs a second hand retelling by dealer. I keep Representative involved by direct contact.

Sorta the 'squeaky wheel' principle only I 'squeak' at both dealer and mfg.
Dealer is face to face and MFG. Rep is via phone calls then e-mails.

[darsben]

When people complain about the LAWS governing automobile warranties.
You have just made the case for the laws/regulations.
No warrant protection for RV consumers equals the treatment you received.