The China-Bomb debate Put to rest

[4X4Dodger]

Almost every week or more a thread appears with someone with a tire question. And just as predictably the China Bomb experts come out and start decrying all Chinese made tires.

Then usually they recommend MAXXIS tires. Maxxis are held in almost religious high regard by some here and they claim are NOT made in China.

This is usually followed by several others who also recommend Maxxis.

I personally have no doubt that Maxxis are good tires. As are Goodyears, Kumho, Cooper and many other brands. But I don't beleive they are SIGNIFICANTLY better than any other.

I have tried in many of these posts to bring some perspective on Chinese manufacturing which I know quite well from my professional life. I also try to bring some facts to bear on the subject.

So in an effort to arm myself with more facts I was doing some research on Tire Manufacturing in China and came across a very interesting article in a Tire Industry Publication Called Tire Review.

The chart below appears in that article clearly showing that MAXXIS is part of one of the largest tire manufacturers in China. Note also the inclusion of several western tire manufacturers who also manufacture in China.

From Tire Review Magazine 10/1/2015 David Shaw



Now for a little context: The article I cite was written about the tire Industry IN China ie it centered mostly on the Chinese Domestic market. It did cover the issue of exports also. But it's main focus was the Domestic Chinese market.

The article goes on to explain that there is currently a shakedown taking place in the Chinese Tire industry with some new US tariffs being applied (due to alleged Dumping) and new regulations on the industry by the Government of China. Here is a quote:

"U.S. duties aside, probably the biggest factor in the Chinese tire industry crisis is the slew of new legislation being issued by the Chinese government and managed through the CRIA. China is set to become the most-heavily regulated country in the world for tire manufacturing."

and...According to the article China dominates the GLOBAL market for tires.

I hope this takes a few steps towards normalizing the debate on this site about China Bombs and how great Maxxis are.

The FACT is that some great tires are made by many companies in China, by Chinese, American and European companies.

So please lets just stop the China Bomb rants and stop encouraging folks who have tire questions to replace all the tires that came on their new trailers. It's a waste of money and there is no evidence of any kind that it is either necessary or desirable.

As you can see those revered MAXXIS are owned by a Chinese firm and are manufactured in China as well as some other Asian countries.

[98coachman]

1) ST tires are rated for higher loads than LT tires - mostly because ST tires are speed restricted to 65 mph and LT tires aren't
I believe this is the biggest factor of failure! I see people all the time passing me on the freeway at 75-85 miles an hour and then they wonder what happened to their tires.:S Thank so much for the insight! I can't wait to see your next installment!
Bill

[Bigbird65]

Very interesting CapriRacer. I'll sure keep watching to see what you write about Chinese tires.

[rbpru]

Well I stand corrected on the ST and a 65 mph limit.

It does not surprise me that the tire manufacturers would want to meet the changing customer demands. That is a good thing.

As one who has had to bring his TT to a panic stop twice, once a complete stop to miss a deer with fawns and another to a very slow roll to avoid another vehicle during a traffic merge; even at 40 mph a lot of pavement goes by before things come to a stop or slow roll.


Be careful out there.

[CapriRacer]

Just an FYI:

Both Roger (Tireman9) and I are retired tire engineers. Unfortunately, Roger has run afoul of the moderators of this site, because his website RV Tire Safety contains some advertising - he has effectively been banned.

Roger and I worked for different manufacturers, but have extremely similar experiences. Here's my take on the subject.

First, it would be great if we could get a breakdown of the tire failures by producing plant - but that is not going to happen. Not only is that EXTREMELY proprietary (every tire manufacturer would just love to know where their competition is!), it has some built in issues with data collection.

Before I retired it was my job to do such analyses, and these things can change over time. In fact, that is the purpose of doing them - to find where the problems are and fix them. But the data I had was for the company I worked for and I had little information about other tire manufacturers.

We assumed the data collection didn't change from year to year - even though it surely did! We based our analysis on tires being returned to us - mostly for warranty - and we categorized them according to what we found. We had a HUGE(!!) database and analytical tools to help (For people who care, we made extensive use of Excel Pivot tables.)

Some background: When Ford and Firestone had their issues back in August of 2000 (or so), the situation was quite different than it is today. The US Federal government has since passed the TREAD Act, and one of those things that it requires is the reporting of tire failures on a quarterly basis - starting in 2008 (Yes, it took that long to get the system in place. It was very difficult to get the system designed and get everyone on board)

And for those who think it is the regulation differences between LT and ST tires, allow me to add some fact to chew on:

1) ST tires are rated for higher loads than LT tires - mostly because ST tires are speed restricted to 65 mph and LT tires aren't.

2) Tire manufacturers know that the government mandated testing doesn't insure a good performing product. Not only do the tires need to exceed the government minimums by a certain amount to insure that ALL tires pass, but they have to exceed the minimums by another step (or 2 or 5) in order to perform satisfactorily from the consumers point of view.

So I am of the opinion that changing the government regulations for ST tires isn't the way to go. I am also of the opinion that ST tires will pass the LT tests as they are on the books now - hence the justification for not changing the regulations.

I think some of the issues lay at the trailer manufacturer's doorstep. ST tires are speed restricted to 65 mph, but the trailer manufacturers do not have sufficient warnings to that effect.

Further, they should be selecting tires with an adequate reserve (unused) load (and speed) capacity. This is basically about tire load range and size. This is was one the lessons from the Ford/Firestone situation a few years ago - and the motorized vehicle manufacturers ALL went up in tire size as a result.

OK, this post is a bit too long already, so I'll stop here and give everyone time to comment. Please note, I will talk about Chinese made tires after this part gets chewed on.

[rbpru]

One of the problems I see is that a person is driving and bingo one of the TT tire shreds;rubber is thrown and the remnants look like catastrophic tire failure.
* Was it a catastrophic tire failure?
* Was it a road hazard puncture driven to failure before it was noticed.
* Was it an underinflated tire that finally failed or a host of other similar issues.

My point is most folks seem to notice the flat TT tire after it shreds or is otherwise mangled. The root cause of the problem is lost, leave only one's best guess as the cause of failure.

[93Cobra2771]

mrekim wrote:

4X4Dodger wrote:
Let me pose a question to all of those here who believe any of the following:

A. ST tires are inferior to LT's for trailer service

B: ST Tires made in China are intrinsically bad

C: LT Tires are made "Heavier" ie better than ST Tires and thus are better for trailer service.

If I was able to bring ONE expert from the industry to this discussion who would you believe?

A Tire Design Engineer? A company spokesperson? An independent Tire industry writer?

Or?

Just name it and I will do my best to contact them and bring them in some way to this discussion. I have many contacts in business and industry and am sure I can get their attention.

So name a source you WILL BELIEVE. Because some of you certainly continue to deny the facts as stated in several posted sources from differing parts of the industry. So this is your chance.

I would like to see stats that show plants (in any country), failure modes and number of failures. Brand names are probably meaningless. It's way easier to change the name on the side vs the plant that made the tire.

I will never buy from plant code 10 (NANKANG RUBBER INDUSTRIAL, CO. LTD.) because the Mission tires I had experienced three failures with two being belt separations and one being a bubble. This is running the tires at less than 1/2 of capacity. That in combination with other complaints about Mission tires makes me believe this is a reasonable decision.

I have had 1 belt separation from plant 1K (DOUBLESTAR DONGFENG TYRE CO., LTD) so for me the jury is still out on that plant.


I've had good service from plant 20 (MAXXIS INTERNATIONAL (THAILAND) CO., LTD).

That is definitely the data to go by, IMO. Unfortunately, that relies on the customers to go through the trouble of reporting the failures. But of those that report, it would still be some good statistical data.

[mrekim]

4X4Dodger wrote:
Let me pose a question to all of those here who believe any of the following:

A. ST tires are inferior to LT's for trailer service

B: ST Tires made in China are intrinsically bad

C: LT Tires are made "Heavier" ie better than ST Tires and thus are better for trailer service.

If I was able to bring ONE expert from the industry to this discussion who would you believe?

A Tire Design Engineer? A company spokesperson? An independent Tire industry writer?

Or?

Just name it and I will do my best to contact them and bring them in some way to this discussion. I have many contacts in business and industry and am sure I can get their attention.

So name a source you WILL BELIEVE. Because some of you certainly continue to deny the facts as stated in several posted sources from differing parts of the industry. So this is your chance.

I would like to see stats that show plants (in any country), failure modes and number of failures. Brand names are probably meaningless. It's way easier to change the name on the side vs the plant that made the tire.

I will never buy from plant code 10 (NANKANG RUBBER INDUSTRIAL, CO. LTD.) because the Mission tires I had experienced three failures with two being belt separations and one being a bubble. This is running the tires at less than 1/2 of capacity. That in combination with other complaints about Mission tires makes me believe this is a reasonable decision.

I have had 1 belt separation from plant 1K (DOUBLESTAR DONGFENG TYRE CO., LTD) so for me the jury is still out on that plant.


I've had good service from plant 20 (MAXXIS INTERNATIONAL (THAILAND) CO., LTD).

[goducks10]

The new Carlisle HD are rated for 81mph. The I'd have no problem cruising at 65-70mph if conditions warranted it.

[aguablanco]

rbpru wrote:
I am not an LT fan but I would choose them over STs if I cruised at 70 mph. No sense asking a tire to do what it was not designed to do.

Actually, my new "china bomb" Carlisle ST tires are rated at 82mph.
RichH

[rbpru]

I am not an LT fan but I would choose them over STs if I cruised at 70 mph. No sense asking a tire to do what it was not designed to do.

[RoyBell]

I am year 2 on my OEM ST tires. I was ready to change them before I got the trailer after reading these forums. Probably 6K towing miles, no issues. I have a monitor on them and they stay steady in PSI. The rears read 1-2 psi when traveling and I can tell which side the sun is on by the temperature. I also cruise 70-75 mph too. Temps stay steady roughly 10 degrees over ambient and inflate roughly 5psi over cold. I am going to hold out on LT till I need them I guess.

[Westcoasting]

JIMNLIN wrote:
Maybe some folks do.
I choose LT tires for my small trailer fleet because ST tires were killing my small hauling business. With 28 tires under my trailers on the road every day I had to do sumpin'.
A fine old gone but not forgotten Goodyear truck tire dealer showed me a cheaper/long term way.
ST tire were cooked after 12k-18k miles depending on size. LT tires ran 40k-60k miles depending on size. I was one happy small business owner.

I've simply applied that experience to my rv trailers.
Example...... my current 11200 lb 5er has 48k+ miles on the 2nd set of BFG LT E tires. Ran the 1st set for 55k+ miles and seven years. Zero issues and I drive the speed limit.

I can't afford to use ST tires at the rate they would need to be replaced. Other have different experiences.

I couldn't afford trailer tires on my trailer! Went through 1 Super Trail, 2 Maxxis, and 1 Goodyear Marathon before my tire store suggested Goodyear Wrangler HT's. No more flat tires and now it is close to three years running them.

[2oldman]

..

[JIMNLIN]

Maybe some folks do.
I choose LT tires for my small trailer fleet because ST tires were killing my small hauling business. With 28 tires under my trailers on the road every day I had to do sumpin'.
A fine old gone but not forgotten Goodyear truck tire dealer showed me a cheaper/long term way.
ST tire were cooked after 12k-18k miles depending on size. LT tires ran 40k-60k miles depending on size. I was one happy small business owner.

I've simply applied that experience to my rv trailers.
Example...... my current 11200 lb 5er has 48k+ miles on the 2nd set of BFG LT E tires. Ran the 1st set for 55k+ miles and seven years. Zero issues and I drive the speed limit.

I can't afford to use ST tires at the rate they would need to be replaced. Other have different experiences.

[aguablanco]

aguablanco wrote:

2oldman wrote:
I wonder if some choose (and vigorously defend that choice) LT tires is that they like to tow faster than 65mph.

And are willing to spend dearly to do it.

I have 82 MPH rated St tires and I rarely go over 65 MPH. I consider the extra 17 MPH as a safety factor. Who, in their right mind, would run any equipment at the absolute high end of performance. If I had two 2500# axles on my trailer, that was 5000# wet I would consider it overloaded and probably install 3500# axles. It isn't always a speed factor, it can also be a safety margin.
RichH