Towing MPG

[Eric_18]

Hi All!
Pretty serious about changing from Class C motorhome to Truck-trailer combo, due to overall costs associated with driving it.
The biggest trailer we're looking at is about 8,000 dry & 10,400 GVW.
My plan is to get a Ford F150 or Dodge 1500.
Curious what kind of towing MPG people are getting.
The best we've gotten in our motorhome is 7.4 MPG with the F450 chasis & V10.
Thank You!
Eric

[twodownzero]

Atlee wrote:
If you don't own a 3.5L Ecoboost, how do you know that engine is worked to death, and it's insanity to try to do so?

I also have a F150 HDPP and 3.5 Ecoboost. This past summer, we traveled from Virginia to New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, and South Dakota before coming back home.

We were in the Rockies a lot. At no time was my 3.5L Eco every over worked going up the steep grades. And when I had to slow way down until a slower vehicle got out of my way while going up a steep grade, I had zero problem getting from the low speed back up to the speed limit. And no, the engine was not screaming while doing so. Usually, 3500 rpm was all I needed to get back to speed.

The only problem was going down steep grades. I really had to manually down shift sometimes to 2nd gear to keep my speed down and not have to use too much braking.

Now, I would not begin to tow 10k GVWR trailers with my 3.5L F150.
My trailer is 6500# GVWR and it worked fantastic behind my F150 3.5L Eco w/ HDPP.

I know the engine is worked to death because I have worked on and built engines for over 20 years. Why is your engine 3.5 liters? Answer: because it has fewer cylinders, and less bore and stroke than a larger engine. What does that indicate to me? That the parts that are taking the load inside that engine (pistons, rings, crank/rods, bearings) are fewer and smaller. While there have been marginal gains in efficiency and boost certainly produces a significant jump, torque still comes from burning fuel and applying the force of combustion to the top of the piston and transferring it into the remainder of the rotating assembly. Boost, in raising volumetric efficiency, also raises cylinder pressures. So not only are you applying the force over a smaller area bore, ring surface area), you are also doing so with more force (call it higher cylinder pressure if you wish, pressure = force/area). I don't need to own one to know those to be facts based on the published data--similar horsepower to a larger engine in a 213 cubic inch displacement. No amount of technology is going to change that. While year after year, engineers try, there is still no replacement for displacement.

I guess it depends on what you consider "overworked," because I live out here in the west and I know how hard a truck has to work to get up those mountains. Even with only my truck camper on board (3,000 pounds), I have watched the boost gauge on my Ram head toward the top of the range on mountains in Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, and Arizona to name a few. Could it be that you just don't realize how hard your truck was working to push the weight up those grades? Even the semi truck tractors that are used out here in the west have larger radiators and sometimes higher rated engines than a company would use out in the flats of the midwest.

It is only by virtue of modern technology that I'm even willing to allow my truck to exert that kind of effort. Modern oils are protecting the internals and a computer is keeping the engine from getting hot enough to melt itself. In your case, a sophisticated knock sensor system is preventing a boosted, 10:1 compression engine from knocking itself apart, especially if you have 87 in the tank. A similarly complex fuel injection system is likely enrichening the mixture to ward off that possibility, and the knock sensor pulling timing if needed. Both are needed to protect the equipment, but neither are good for fuel economy. A larger displacement engine with a lower compression ratio could make the same torque without being on the ragged edge of detonation or having to enrichen the fuel mixture to starve it off. I've seen modern vehicles that run so much boost under load that they have to pull almost all of the ignition advance out of the engine under certain conditions. The return is better fuel economy on flat ground with no load, but the heavy load/high boost parameters are, as you've probably experienced, not going to produce better mpg than a small V8.

If the engine wasn't above 3,500 RPM, you weren't even really using it. The horsepower peak is at 5,000, so you weren't getting max acceleration or anything close there. If you were happy with the acceleration for the conditions, that's fine, but there's really nothing wrong with "screaming" a modern gas engine.

The reason you're not experiencing the engine braking you're probably used to is that while boost can raise the cylinder pressures under load, it can't do that when you're going down the mountain. Again, no replacement for displacement here as well. The amount of "braking" horsepower your engine can make is lesser than a naturally aspirated engine of similar output would make. I don't know that I'd really be too concerned about it (just might have to slow down more and use the brakes more than otherwise), but it's a factor.

Of course there's no free lunch. I'm sure the Ecoboost has the potential to get great fuel economy when cruising down the highway at 16+:1 AFR with nothing in the truck but the driver. The tradeoff is the things you observed. Like all things in life, it's a compromise. I'd rather have an economical car to drive when I don't need my truck, so I have no use for a few more empty/unloaded MPG in my truck. If I did, I might consider something like the Ecoboost.

FWIW I don't consider 6,500 pounds to be too much weight for a 1/2 ton truck with the right gear ratio and hitch setup. I do think the people pulling 10k or more with them are absolutely nuts. Personally, I prefer not to own pickups with semi floating rear axles; I think they are dangerous for any kind of serious use and I would feel very differently about towing with 1/2 ton trucks were they equipped with a full floating axle. Even just the same axle assemblies they are using, converted to full floating design, would be far safer and make much more sense to me (Toyota Landcruisers had a smaller, 8" or so ring gear full floating axle in some models). The rear axle is really my biggest concern and the primary reason why I don't own any 1/2 ton trucks anymore.

[Dave_H_M]

:h yessir a head scratcher for me. let's see:

We are getting rid of the class C cus it uses to much fuel?

So we invest in a 150 and tow trailer to replace it?

Then we have gotten rid of the stang as daily commuter.

Someone show me where the savings is pls.

[Grit_dog]

FWIW, if a F150 has the 9.75 " rear axle, it is only a leaf spring away from being a HDPP.
To the OP, yes 10klbs is a bit much for regular duty behind a 1/2 ton of any flavor IMO. Although I do it all the time with lower profile loads.
Mileage won't be significantly better towing than with your C. Maybe 1mpg better depending where and how heavy you are on the skinny pedal.
Definately a better dual purpose setup than the C or a Mustang!
Have fun shopping. For a new truck and trailer!

(And take some of the extreme opinions on here with a grain of salt. You can figure out which posts those are...)

[VernDiesel]

Great concise post JIMNLIN. Almost all the F150s you find on the road or on sales lots are #3 & #4. One day perhaps I'll order a F150DHPP if it becomes available with the lil diesel and good tunes are available for it. Or maybe I'll buy an HD and just buy more fuel. But I've never towed over 10k and never had CVW of more than 16k and don't expect to.

[BenK]

Last time checked...Ford has the most half ton models, but the other OEMs has many of their own

Marketing model designation is at best confusing and I never really use them, unless talking to someone using that reference.

Best to use 'REAL' designation that is NOT confusing, nor changes over time. "Half ton" covers GVWR's from the low 5,000's to just under 8,000 lb GVWR. Ditto RGAWR...they range from low 3,000's to just under 5,000 lbs...but if you use their 'REAL' designation...a 7,400 GVWR is the same from the day it left the factory...to the day it is crushed for scrap...of course the wear and tear will reduce it's ability greatly...or not depending on how it was maintained

Take JIMNLINs post above and quoted below...they are all 'half ton' or F150's, but if everyone referenced them by 'REAL' specific terms, there would be no confusion.

JIMNLIN wrote:
snip....

Ford markets several gvwr/rawr packages for the F150;

#1. 7850 gvwr...4800 rawr....2500 lb in the bed payloads.

#2. 7600 gvwr...4550 rawr... 2200 lb in the bed payloads

#3. 7050 gvwr...4050 rawr... 1800 lb in the bed payloads

#4. 6800 gvwr...3800 rawr...1500 lb in the bed payloads.
Payloads are a estimate as only scaled axle weights will give any truck its real world payloads.

Then the other way folks 'try' to continue to use 'half ton' by adding to look for how many wheel lugs they have....or....whether they came from the factory with passenger class tires (P class that has to be de-rated a min of 9% when used on pickups/SUVs/etc) or with a higher class (light truck tires...LT, which do NOT need to be de-rated)

Why refer to these 'unicorn' as many say...as a 'fake half ton'...more to try and get this across, but marketing verbiage is the basis for most all who are into non-specific reference to their vehicles...wonder when one of the OEMs will come out with a marketing model called: "The Super Dupper, King of the Hill, Bad@ss" model...toss in a very expensive metal's name...works for credit cards too...

{edit}...moving both the TV and Trailer takes the same amount of HP, therefore fuel. No matter which class TV you have

All factored by the ICE architecture, type of fuel, frontal (CX) of both, rolling resistance (extra wide tires has, generally, more rolling resistance than a narrower tire), gearing, pumping losses, etc, etc...

So of course, a lighter everything will take less HP to move it and keep it moving

[4x4ord]

Eric 18 wrote:
Thank You All for the responses!
I'm pretty set on truck size. I'll be buying new. We're going to go with a lighter weight trailer, per the majority of thoughts.
The truck will be my daily driver, and will be trading in a 14 GT Mustang for it.
My wife & I love the sense of community we find RVing. It seems to be the same here!
Thanks Again, Happy New Year!

I love my diesel but if all I had to pull was 10,000 lbs I'd be doing it with a 1/2 ton. The new 1/2 tons are more capable than the 1 ton diesels were 15 years ago.

[JIMNLIN]

Just to clarify, you're mixing up the F150 packages.
The HD Payload package gives you the beefed up suspension for a heavier PAYLOAD capacity.
The Max Tow package gives other features for a higher TOWING capacity, like rear view camera and 36 gallon fuel tank.
With the HDPP, I believe it automatically comes with the Max Tow package.

OP......pay very close attention to what bikendan is saying about the F150 "max tow" option vs "max payload option" there not the same.
Too many F150 owners bought into the max tow option thinking it was max....when it ain't.

Ford markets several gvwr/rawr packages for the F150;

#1. 7850 gvwr...4800 rawr....2500 lb in the bed payloads.

#2. 7600 gvwr...4550 rawr... 2200 lb in the bed payloads

#3. 7050 gvwr...4050 rawr... 1800 lb in the bed payloads

#4. 6800 gvwr...3800 rawr...1500 lb in the bed payloads.
Payloads are a estimate as only scaled axle weights will give any truck its real world payloads.

Only the F150HDPP has max payload capacities.
All the others may have the "max tow" option which is where many F150 owners think their truck is the max.

The 3.5EB engine will have no problems pulling its 10k-11k lb trailer tow rating. Pay attention to actual F150 owners on that point.

[Atlee]

Agree with all you said. Your experience was the same as mine this summer while towing through the Rockies.

And your gas mileage pretty much matches what I've gotten.

AlmostAnOldGuy wrote:

twodownzero wrote:

danrclem wrote:

Eric 18 wrote:
Thank You All for the responses!
I'm pretty set on truck size. I'll be buying new. We're going to go with a lighter weight trailer, per the majority of thoughts.
The truck will be my daily driver, and will be trading in a 14 GT Mustang for it.
My wife & I love the sense of community we find RVing. It seems to be the same here!
Thanks Again, Happy New Year!

I think you're on the right track here. If you get a 3.5 ecoboost and a heavy duty package you should be set. It may not get the greatest mileage while towing but would be a lot better than a gas 3/4 ton when empty. If you're getting a bumper hitch camper make sure you get the rear view camera. It makes it so much easier when you're hitching it by yourself.

Couldn't more strongly disagree with this if I tried. Towing anywhere close to what they say you can tow with a 1/2 ton truck is scary. Doing it with a 3.5L V6 in insane.

I don't own one, but from what I have read online, the engines are worked to death even empty. I doubt you'd see more than 1-2 mpg over a 3/4 ton gasoline truck empty. And the torque difference, loaded or unloaded, is not trivial.

Do the research on what people really are getting for fuel mileage with these things. The ecoboost is not doing any better in the real world than a small V8.

From those of us who own and operate the 3.5L EcoBoost it is not 'worked to death'. I came from a Chev 8.1L (good engine) so I am familiar with good V8s. In the recent post on the Ike Gauntlet you can see the EcoBoost pull the hill at more than 1,000 rpms less than the 5.7 and 6.2 V8s. And I can tell you I really like how it runs at those lower rpms and holds the gears due to the low end torque. The EcoBoost does not have as good of engine braking. Again as seen on the Ike run it had the same number of brake applications as the V8s but was running at higher rpms. This seems accurate to me based on my real world experience.

As for handling payload the Max Payload / HD Payload with the higher GVWR is a more capable truck than a 'typical' 1/2 ton. Let me be clear this does not make the truck an F250, but it is none the less very capable. I have towed 8k for 6 years with no complaints. If I was going to go heavy with a new F150 I would seek advice from someone doing this in the real world on this forum.

As for mpg it gets the same as V8s towing and I get 19mpg with the 3.73 running at 65mph. I would expect the newer trucks do a bit better.

Take it easy,
Stu

[Atlee]

If you don't own a 3.5L Ecoboost, how do you know that engine is worked to death, and it's insanity to try to do so?

I also have a F150 HDPP and 3.5 Ecoboost. This past summer, we traveled from Virginia to New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, and South Dakota before coming back home.

We were in the Rockies a lot. At no time was my 3.5L Eco every over worked going up the steep grades. And when I had to slow way down until a slower vehicle got out of my way while going up a steep grade, I had zero problem getting from the low speed back up to the speed limit. And no, the engine was not screaming while doing so. Usually, 3500 rpm was all I needed to get back to speed.

The only problem was going down steep grades. I really had to manually down shift sometimes to 2nd gear to keep my speed down and not have to use too much braking.

Now, I would not begin to tow 10k GVWR trailers with my 3.5L F150.
My trailer is 6500# GVWR and it worked fantastic behind my F150 3.5L Eco w/ HDPP.

twodownzero wrote:

danrclem wrote:

Eric 18 wrote:
Thank You All for the responses!
I'm pretty set on truck size. I'll be buying new. We're going to go with a lighter weight trailer, per the majority of thoughts.
The truck will be my daily driver, and will be trading in a 14 GT Mustang for it.
My wife & I love the sense of community we find RVing. It seems to be the same here!
Thanks Again, Happy New Year!

I think you're on the right track here. If you get a 3.5 ecoboost and a heavy duty package you should be set. It may not get the greatest mileage while towing but would be a lot better than a gas 3/4 ton when empty. If you're getting a bumper hitch camper make sure you get the rear view camera. It makes it so much easier when you're hitching it by yourself.

Couldn't more strongly disagree with this if I tried. Towing anywhere close to what they say you can tow with a 1/2 ton truck is scary. Doing it with a 3.5L V6 in insane.

I don't own one, but from what I have read online, the engines are worked to death even empty. I doubt you'd see more than 1-2 mpg over a 3/4 ton gasoline truck empty. And the torque difference, loaded or unloaded, is not trivial.

Do the research on what people really are getting for fuel mileage with these things. The ecoboost is not doing any better in the real world than a small V8.

[mkirsch]

There is no free lunch. It requires X Joules of energy to move a mass at a certain velocity. Doesn't matter if it's a 14,000lb Class C motorhome, or a 7,000lb trailer and a 7000lb truck.

Some efficiency can be gained through time and technology, but not significant enough gains that will pay for themselves. You can buy a LOT of gas for that paid-off Class C before you even come close to a payment on a new truck and trailer, even considering trade-ins.

[AlmostAnOldGuy]

twodownzero wrote:

danrclem wrote:

Eric 18 wrote:
Thank You All for the responses!
I'm pretty set on truck size. I'll be buying new. We're going to go with a lighter weight trailer, per the majority of thoughts.
The truck will be my daily driver, and will be trading in a 14 GT Mustang for it.
My wife & I love the sense of community we find RVing. It seems to be the same here!
Thanks Again, Happy New Year!

I think you're on the right track here. If you get a 3.5 ecoboost and a heavy duty package you should be set. It may not get the greatest mileage while towing but would be a lot better than a gas 3/4 ton when empty. If you're getting a bumper hitch camper make sure you get the rear view camera. It makes it so much easier when you're hitching it by yourself.

Couldn't more strongly disagree with this if I tried. Towing anywhere close to what they say you can tow with a 1/2 ton truck is scary. Doing it with a 3.5L V6 in insane.

I don't own one, but from what I have read online, the engines are worked to death even empty. I doubt you'd see more than 1-2 mpg over a 3/4 ton gasoline truck empty. And the torque difference, loaded or unloaded, is not trivial.

Do the research on what people really are getting for fuel mileage with these things. The ecoboost is not doing any better in the real world than a small V8.

From those of us who own and operate the 3.5L EcoBoost it is not 'worked to death'. I came from a Chev 8.1L (good engine) so I am familiar with good V8s. In the recent post on the Ike Gauntlet you can see the EcoBoost pull the hill at more than 1,000 rpms less than the 5.7 and 6.2 V8s. And I can tell you I really like how it runs at those lower rpms and holds the gears due to the low end torque. The EcoBoost does not have as good of engine braking. Again as seen on the Ike run it had the same number of brake applications as the V8s but was running at higher rpms. This seems accurate to me based on my real world experience.

As for handling payload the Max Payload / HD Payload with the higher GVWR is a more capable truck than a 'typical' 1/2 ton. Let me be clear this does not make the truck an F250, but it is none the less very capable. I have towed 8k for 6 years with no complaints. If I was going to go heavy with a new F150 I would seek advice from someone doing this in the real world on this forum.

As for mpg it gets the same as V8s towing and I get 19mpg with the 3.73 running at 65mph. I would expect the newer trucks do a bit better.

Take it easy,
Stu

[AlmostAnOldGuy]

bikendan wrote:

AlmostAnOldGuy wrote:
Pulling 8k I get around 9.

If you have good reasons for staying with a '1/2 ton' and go with an F150 I would get the Max Payload option to beef up the suspension. Those are tough to get on a lot so that means putting in an order for your truck. That also means you get just the packages you want. Would not expect to save any $ over the F250. But you may have other reasons for staying with the F150 (vehicle height, non-towing mpg, etc.).

Good luck,
Stu

Just to clarify, you're mixing up the F150 packages.
The HD Payload package gives you the beefed up suspension for a heavier PAYLOAD capacity.
The Max Tow package gives other features for a higher TOWING capacity, like rear view camera and 36 gallon fuel tank.
With the HDPP, I believe it automatically comes with the Max Tow package.

Not quite sure why you wrote I am mixing them up, but think we are on the same page here. I was focusing on the heavier suspension. It is a valid point to call out that the Max Tow package is included when you get Max Payload / HD Payload. A lot of folks are not aware of the Max Payload / HD Payload option because it is very rarely on a lot and if so commonly in a work truck configuration. When I went in to order mine the salesman at the dealership did not know that package existed.

As you and I both know the heavier suspension is good to have if you are towing heavy. And I think both of us chose this option over the F250 for valid reasons of our own.

Take it easy,
Stu

[twodownzero]

danrclem wrote:

Eric 18 wrote:
Thank You All for the responses!
I'm pretty set on truck size. I'll be buying new. We're going to go with a lighter weight trailer, per the majority of thoughts.
The truck will be my daily driver, and will be trading in a 14 GT Mustang for it.
My wife & I love the sense of community we find RVing. It seems to be the same here!
Thanks Again, Happy New Year!

I think you're on the right track here. If you get a 3.5 ecoboost and a heavy duty package you should be set. It may not get the greatest mileage while towing but would be a lot better than a gas 3/4 ton when empty. If you're getting a bumper hitch camper make sure you get the rear view camera. It makes it so much easier when you're hitching it by yourself.

Couldn't more strongly disagree with this if I tried. Towing anywhere close to what they say you can tow with a 1/2 ton truck is scary. Doing it with a 3.5L V6 in insane.

I don't own one, but from what I have read online, the engines are worked to death even empty. I doubt you'd see more than 1-2 mpg over a 3/4 ton gasoline truck empty. And the torque difference, loaded or unloaded, is not trivial.

Do the research on what people really are getting for fuel mileage with these things. The ecoboost is not doing any better in the real world than a small V8.

[danrclem]

Eric 18 wrote:
Thank You All for the responses!
I'm pretty set on truck size. I'll be buying new. We're going to go with a lighter weight trailer, per the majority of thoughts.
The truck will be my daily driver, and will be trading in a 14 GT Mustang for it.
My wife & I love the sense of community we find RVing. It seems to be the same here!
Thanks Again, Happy New Year!

I think you're on the right track here. If you get a 3.5 ecoboost and a heavy duty package you should be set. It may not get the greatest mileage while towing but would be a lot better than a gas 3/4 ton when empty. If you're getting a bumper hitch camper make sure you get the rear view camera. It makes it so much easier when you're hitching it by yourself.

[ib516]

I get about 10 mpg with my current combo (trailer weight is 3500# loaded).
With my previous combo (2014 Ram 2500 6.4L Hemi and a 12k, 37' triple slide out 5er) I got 7-9 mpg, usually 8 ish mpg. GCW was 21k for that set up.