legolas wrote:
I agree completely with Coleman on this issue.
Wes Tausend's advice is reckless and dangerous. I assume his degree in mechanical and or automotive engineering came either from the school of hard knocks or the internet. Remember "they can't put anything on the internet that isn't true"! Please don't let anyone tell you that the weights and measures placed on the capacity of a tow vehicle are developed by lawyers....they are not. They are developed by engineers who work very hard at proper research, development, design and testing before they apply the limits. For anyone to blatantly tell you that 25% over is just fine albeit maybe a little harder to stop is dangerous and reckless. Automotive engineers, just as aviation engineers, have designed their products for specific uses within specific performance parameters and specifications. When those parameters are exceeded you place strain on critical parts which will cause them to wear and fail before their time. It places strain on frames as well which will fail prematurely due to "metal fatigue" among other things. Am I saying that the wheels will fall off the first time you exceed some parameter? No, not the first time and maybe not the 15th but the vehicle is being taxed beyond what it was designed to do and the fact is that maintenance costs will increase because the intervals between oilchanges, bearing and brake replacement etc etc will need to be shortened in order to ensure the safe and efficient operation of the vehicle. If they aren't meticulously maintained they will fail far sooner than they should. And who knows when that early failure will cause an accident.
The engineers designed the vehicle to perform a specific purpose within specific parameters with the materials with which it was built at their factory. Warranties /guarantees etc are put into place to protect the manufacturer from folks who operate a vehicle outside its design parameters who modify the vehicle in any one of a number of ways. There is a very good reason the aviation community has the saying" there are old pilots and there are bold pilots...but there are no old bold pilots".
How much over is too much and for how long can one do that without a problem. As Smokey the Bear might say "Only you can prevent towing discomfort or accidents".
Is this gloom and doom or the chicken little "sky is falling"? No it is just a modicum of knowledge and some common sense which unfortunately is not all that common anymore. Witness the folks who think they are smarter than the engineers who designed the vehicle.
legolas,
Thanks for responding. I can see you put a lot of thought into writing this and I'm sure many feel like you do. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, although along with Coleman and others, I would like you all to think further about it and to reconsider your logic. The "sky-will-fall" advice often given on here to gentle new prospective members is a put-off and many never return. Very unkind, and no, it is not always for their own good.
Ask yourself why you consider my advice "reckless". What catastrophy do you specifically think will happen if someone overloads payload and/or towing by 25%? I can tell you from experience that it is hardly noticeable from running at the max listed guidelines. And, yes, it isn't a pleasant drive anymore at either load. But if anything finally breaks, it will most certainly be the light duty tires and you should know this. Tires are an easy fix.
First, I am not smarter than the engineers, but I, along with some others on this forum, am
as smart as they are (at least I was when I was younger). And I figured out a long time ago how suspensions worked and I'm not afraid to question authority. Perhaps the logical perspective needs to be more carefully explained.
Second, have you ever thought about the loosely used phrase, "common sense"? Basically, "
common" = average and "
sense" = what one may sense; sight, sound see, touch, equilibrium, etc. Sometimes "common sense" is deceiving, as in the case when common sense told people that the earth was flat, still and the moving sky slowly passed overhead. Common perception is often one thing, reality another. The trick for all of us is to not be a flat-earther. Always question authority.
The logical reason the capacities for light duty trucks are what they are is primarily because of tires. Sure, wear is taken into consideration, especially regarding constant commercial use and many things have been upgraded recently, such as transmissions and axle/differentials. But the primary light truck capacity consideration is tires that are designed to provide a smooth ride in the passenger catagory that most are used for.
The load capacities of trucks are tied inexorably to the tires.
The factory simply cannot rate the vehicle beyond the original tire offerings. The soft-riding passenger Load Range B tires may be inflated to 35 psi, the same as an automobile. The Load Range E tires on 3/4 ton vehicles may be inflated to 80 psi.
A recent forum look at a 2012 2WD 1/2 ton Expedition EL reveals it is rated to tow 9200 #'s(payload 1580 lbs), and a 1/2 ton Suburban 8900 lbs (payload 1528 lbs). A 2012
3/4 ton Suburban is only slightly better at towing 9600 lbs. (payload 2450 lbs). Note how the
rated payload increases with better OEM tires (245/75x16
i.e. Load Range E, not B). Towing changes little, almost insignificantly, but except for cooling and perhaps the rear axle, the powertrains are nearly identical.
Then look at this. A 2012 Ford Expedition and/or a 2012 1/2 ton Suburban 1500 have basically LT passenger Load Range B tires on them from the factory.
2012 1/2 ton Ford Expedition2012 1/2 ton Suburban 1500A 2012 Suburban 2500 3/4 ton has LT tires rated at Load Range E.
2012 Suburban 2500What you will notice here is that the OEM tires skip from Load Range B to Load Range E. So why are tires sold that are in between? The main reason is that these inbetween tires can be used to upgrade light duty B tires that come on many OEM 1/2 tons and C's are offered to so upgrade. Some 1/2 ton pick-ups may come with C's OEM, optionally. Load Range C allows one to inflate to 50 psi and, "IMO, makes a great upgrade to load moderately beyond factory ratings for 1/2 ton vehicles." Aftermarket overload springs can be added if one desires, or if they are obviously needed.
My 3/4 ton Excursion came OEM with Load Range D tires. Ford recalled them in 2004 and remounted Load Range E. (Little engineering/legal snafu there. ;) ) D's rode nice, but suddenly lost air similar to the Explorer ATX problem.
Refering to capacities, you said,
"They are developed by engineers who work very hard at proper research, development, design and testing before they apply the limits." This is true to an extent. But it isn't rocket science. Like most of us, mostly they do what worked well last time. Of late, continuous changes to reduce weight are run through CAD and load programs. The Chief Powertrain Engineer does not sign on the line unless he trusts the combination will work. The lawyers will tell him when he screwed up, but he is so conservative that is seldom necessary. Seldom.
It's funny you should mention it, but automotive and aviation engineers have a similar take on things from a legal perspective. The reason many American small plane manufacturers quit for a while
was not because the engineers didn't want to, or did not know how to build small planes. Lawyers have become the reality of our world.
Please take it easy on the new members that inquire of our opinions, and have a great holiday!
Wes
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