kellem wrote:Probably the standard friction bar. It is the only antisway that does not depend on TW for its antisway resistance.
I really don't care which WDH is better as my Reese DC works and is paid for.
Only way possible to find out would be real world test.
Use same truck and trailer and significantly reduce tounge weight by shifting weight to rear of trailer and run the same stretch of road......and the winner is ?
ScottG wrote:You do not "see" friction. It exists.
I don't see any friction
Huntindog wrote:ScottG wrote:LarryJM wrote:ScottG wrote:
Well Larry, as a retired engineer I do understand how such things work and I can explain how lateral force is generated but I don't think you're open to a civil discussion about it. So, there's no reason for me to attempt to do so. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no friction material employed in the DC.
Good luck to you.
Again IMO you clearly have demonstrated a true lack of understanding of these systems since the Equal-i-zer just like the DC Cam also has no friction material either. Both using the metal to metal friction with the DC Cam only using "sliding friction" whereas the Equal-i-zer uses both "rotational" friction from the sockets along with "sliding" friction from the bars in the "L" brackets.
Also anytime I see someone trying to use some vague education or experience credentials like your "retired engineer" reference often tells me one has no valid or verifiable position on a subject. While I could try and support my input on the subject being discussed here by saying I have and "actual" masters degree in engineering, but my degree is in "systems engineering" which has no real direct application to the topic of this thread so I don't go there. Thus, I quoted a real mechanical engineer that as Hunting has metioned has posted extensively on various mechanical based subject over a number of years and was a well known and I think respected source of actual factual knowledge of how things like these sway systems work in the real world.
With all that I think I have given anyone reading this thread a sufficiently based and referenced good source of information to support the position I have expressed here that the DC Cam system "NEITHER FORCES OR PUSHES" anything ... just like the Equal-i-zer system, it simply "resists" by friction sway movement of a trailer when towed.
Larry
Your attempt at a passive agressive insult aside, I do understand what Ron wrote back then (I remember it). Ron had his own motivation behind his statements. His post was obtuse and took a long and eloborate path to avoid the true mechanics of what is going on with the DC system. Ron had a bit of an ego and seemed to feel he had to post on things even though he didn't really have an answer.
The force of the DC system is no more absolute than the friction systems are. A friction bar resists movement but is not strong enough to cause the truck to drag a trailer sideways after a sharp turn - the bar slips to allow that movement. The friction material itself has a break-over point at which it yields.
The DC also has a BO point. As the truck and trailer get out of line, the pocket of the spring bar is forced against the cam (which cannot move in relation to the trailer) and the steep slope of the pocket is forced against the cam. This is the point of greatest force and the trailer is now pushing against this sharp angle in the spring bars. It takes MORE force to climb this steep portion of the spring bar than it would to slide along the straight section of it. For the combination to continue to get more out of line, the bar has to be bent upward. That amount of force is relative. It isn't so great that it cannot be overcome but is is suffcient to provide a "bump" that the trailer has to act against. This is the "active" part because it doesnjust slow down movement, it's pushing back against it. The two parts push against each other with cancelling force until the cam overcomes the pocket and slides along the bar. Sway control is all but lost after this breakover is achieved.
Just like the friction device, this relative force is enough to influence the attitude of the combo but not enough to send things sliding.
To adress other comments, the leverage at the tongue is not nearly what it is at the back of the trailer - this is true. It doesn't need to be. Would you suggest that a friction bar has no effect because of its location? No, I'm sure you wouldn't. So we know the attitude of the trailer can be influenced in that location.
Notice I made that entire post without insulting anyone else posting in this thread?
You just described exactly why the DC is a FRICTION hitch.
The rest is just opinons... Is the DC better because it has increased friction when moving away from center than towards center? or is the Equalizer better because it can generate more force equally in BOTH directions?
Keep in mind that SWAY is a back and forth motion of the TT.
In reality, they both perform well. The advantage of the so called centering action of the DC is cancelled out if one believes that sway is when the TT wags back and forth... Since the DC has less force in this direction, it is at a disadvantage at that stage of sway. The EQUALIZER with its 4 points of friction can generate more antisway force in both directions.
Bottom line... They both perform well.
ScottG wrote:LarryJM wrote:ScottG wrote:
Well Larry, as a retired engineer I do understand how such things work and I can explain how lateral force is generated but I don't think you're open to a civil discussion about it. So, there's no reason for me to attempt to do so. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no friction material employed in the DC.
Good luck to you.
Again IMO you clearly have demonstrated a true lack of understanding of these systems since the Equal-i-zer just like the DC Cam also has no friction material either. Both using the metal to metal friction with the DC Cam only using "sliding friction" whereas the Equal-i-zer uses both "rotational" friction from the sockets along with "sliding" friction from the bars in the "L" brackets.
Also anytime I see someone trying to use some vague education or experience credentials like your "retired engineer" reference often tells me one has no valid or verifiable position on a subject. While I could try and support my input on the subject being discussed here by saying I have and "actual" masters degree in engineering, but my degree is in "systems engineering" which has no real direct application to the topic of this thread so I don't go there. Thus, I quoted a real mechanical engineer that as Hunting has metioned has posted extensively on various mechanical based subject over a number of years and was a well known and I think respected source of actual factual knowledge of how things like these sway systems work in the real world.
With all that I think I have given anyone reading this thread a sufficiently based and referenced good source of information to support the position I have expressed here that the DC Cam system "NEITHER FORCES OR PUSHES" anything ... just like the Equal-i-zer system, it simply "resists" by friction sway movement of a trailer when towed.
Larry
Your attempt at a passive agressive insult aside, I do understand what Ron wrote back then (I remember it). Ron had his own motivation behind his statements. His post was obtuse and took a long and eloborate path to avoid the true mechanics of what is going on with the DC system. Ron had a bit of an ego and seemed to feel he had to post on things even though he didn't really have an answer.
The force of the DC system is no more absolute than the friction systems are. A friction bar resists movement but is not strong enough to cause the truck to drag a trailer sideways after a sharp turn - the bar slips to allow that movement. The friction material itself has a break-over point at which it yields.
The DC also has a BO point. As the truck and trailer get out of line, the pocket of the spring bar is forced against the cam (which cannot move in relation to the trailer) and the steep slope of the pocket is forced against the cam. This is the point of greatest force and the trailer is now pushing against this sharp angle in the spring bars. It takes MORE force to climb this steep portion of the spring bar than it would to slide along the straight section of it. For the combination to continue to get more out of line, the bar has to be bent upward. That amount of force is relative. It isn't so great that it cannot be overcome but is is suffcient to provide a "bump" that the trailer has to act against. This is the "active" part because it doesnjust slow down movement, it's pushing back against it. The two parts push against each other with cancelling force until the cam overcomes the pocket and slides along the bar. Sway control is all but lost after this breakover is achieved.
Just like the friction device, this relative force is enough to influence the attitude of the combo but not enough to send things sliding.
To adress other comments, the leverage at the tongue is not nearly what it is at the back of the trailer - this is true. It doesn't need to be. Would you suggest that a friction bar has no effect because of its location? No, I'm sure you wouldn't. So we know the attitude of the trailer can be influenced in that location.
Notice I made that entire post without insulting anyone else posting in this thread?
LarryJM wrote:ScottG wrote:
Well Larry, as a retired engineer I do understand how such things work and I can explain how lateral force is generated but I don't think you're open to a civil discussion about it. So, there's no reason for me to attempt to do so. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no friction material employed in the DC.
Good luck to you.
Again IMO you clearly have demonstrated a true lack of understanding of these systems since the Equal-i-zer just like the DC Cam also has no friction material either. Both using the metal to metal friction with the DC Cam only using "sliding friction" whereas the Equal-i-zer uses both "rotational" friction from the sockets along with "sliding" friction from the bars in the "L" brackets.
Also anytime I see someone trying to use some vague education or experience credentials like your "retired engineer" reference often tells me one has no valid or verifiable position on a subject. While I could try and support my input on the subject being discussed here by saying I have and "actual" masters degree in engineering, but my degree is in "systems engineering" which has no real direct application to the topic of this thread so I don't go there. Thus, I quoted a real mechanical engineer that as Hunting has metioned has posted extensively on various mechanical based subject over a number of years and was a well known and I think respected source of actual factual knowledge of how things like these sway systems work in the real world.
With all that I think I have given anyone reading this thread a sufficiently based and referenced good source of information to support the position I have expressed here that the DC Cam system "NEITHER FORCES OR PUSHES" anything ... just like the Equal-i-zer system, it simply "resists" by friction sway movement of a trailer when towed.
Larry
