What is the "real" GVWR?

Ron Gratz wrote:

Crespro wrote:
We are shopping for a trailer for our daughter and son-in-law. They bought a 2006 Ford Expedition with tow package.

The trailers we are looking at are UVW of about 6,000 and loaded weight of about 7,200, with maximum weight of about 8,000.

The projected numbers are: GCVW of 14,500 with Ford at 6,300 and trailer at 7,300=13,600.

Tongue weight of 780 with max rated of 895. Trailer weight of 7,300 with max trailer of 8,000 and TV of 8,900.

Is 6300# the estimated loaded-for-camping weigh of the TV -- not including the weight of a WDH?
If so, you need to add about 100# bringing the TV's GVW to 6400#.
Then subtract the GVW from the TV's GVWR and the remainder is the maximum allowable vertical load which can be imposed on the hitch by the TT.
For example, if the GVWR is 7100#, the maximum vertical load is 7100-6400 = 700#.

A tongue weight of 895# (receiver maximum) would require the WDH to transfer about 200# to the TT's axles to satisfy Ford's specification to return the front end to its unhitched height.
Transferring 200# would leave a net load of 895-200 = 695# imposed on the hitch head.
This means, for the example numbers, a tongue weight of 895# would meet the TV's GVWR and the receiver's tongue specs.

A trailer's tongue weight percentage should be about 13% for good yaw stability.
This means a tongue weight of 895# would correspond to a TT weight of about 895/0.13 = 6900# which is less than the 7200# loaded weights of the trailers you are looking at.

To better determine the tongue weight and trailer weight limits, you need to:
1) verify or adjust your best estimate of the weight of the TV when loaded-for-camping (including 100# for WDH), and
2) verify or adjust the TV's GVWR.

The best way to do 1) is to load the TV approximately as it would be loaded for camping and take it to a scales to weigh the front and rear axles individually. This will give you information for estimating the TV's loaded GVW and determining whether the TV's rear GAWR might be exceeded.

Ron

Thx to all who responded. Very helpful.

Crespro

Crespro wrote:
We are shopping for a trailer for our daughter and son-in-law. They bought a 2006 Ford Expedition with tow package.

The trailers we are looking at are UVW of about 6,000 and loaded weight of about 7,200, with maximum weight of about 8,000.

The projected numbers are: GCVW of 14,500 with Ford at 6,300 and trailer at 7,300=13,600.

Tongue weight of 780 with max rated of 895. Trailer weight of 7,300 with max trailer of 8,000 and TV of 8,900.

Is 6300# the estimated loaded-for-camping weigh of the TV -- not including the weight of a WDH?
If so, you need to add about 100# bringing the TV's GVW to 6400#.
Then subtract the GVW from the TV's GVWR and the remainder is the maximum allowable vertical load which can be imposed on the hitch by the TT.
For example, if the GVWR is 7100#, the maximum vertical load is 7100-6400 = 700#.

A tongue weight of 895# (receiver maximum) would require the WDH to transfer about 200# to the TT's axles to satisfy Ford's specification to return the front end to its unhitched height.
Transferring 200# would leave a net load of 895-200 = 695# imposed on the hitch head.
This means, for the example numbers, a tongue weight of 895# would meet the TV's GVWR and the receiver's tongue specs.

A trailer's tongue weight percentage should be about 13% for good yaw stability.
This means a tongue weight of 895# would correspond to a TT weight of about 895/0.13 = 6900# which is less than the 7200# loaded weights of the trailers you are looking at.

To better determine the tongue weight and trailer weight limits, you need to:
1) verify or adjust your best estimate of the weight of the TV when loaded-for-camping (including 100# for WDH), and
2) verify or adjust the TV's GVWR.

The best way to do 1) is to load the TV approximately as it would be loaded for camping and take it to a scales to weigh the front and rear axles individually. This will give you information for estimating the TV's loaded GVW and determining whether the TV's rear GAWR might be exceeded.

Ron

DesertFront wrote:
I've always just made sure that the trailer GVWR is well below the tow capacity of the tow vehicle. Less confusion, less jibberish. Right now my tow vehicle (nissan frontier) has a tow cap of 6100 lbs.
the GVWR of my TT is 3532 lbs.

I tend to run conservative on most things, I don't like tearing thing up, or bogging down on the highway.

Fair enough. If your trailer just happens to be at it's gross weight, then you are at 57% of the "towing" capacity.

Do you happen to know at what percentage of rear axle capacity, and gross weight capacity of the truck you are ?

LarryJM wrote:
Two thing IMO to watch out for ...

1. The 14,500 GCWR is more of a performance rating, but IMO going much over around 80% of the GCWR for a vehicle can make for a less than desirable towing experience especially in less than optimum towing conditions.

When people tout the "80% rule of thumb", they usually apply it to the TV's Maximum Trailer Weight rating.
A trailer weight of 7200# and a MTWR of 8900# gives a ratio of 81%.

2. That 895lbs I believe is the receiver rating when using a WD system and the wt. of the WDH (around 100lbs typically) goes against that receiver rating leaving you a dead tongue wt. limit of around 700lbs which using the 12 to 15% of the TT wt. gives you a loaded trailer wt. max of between 4700 (15%) and 5800 (12%).---

Larry, can you provide a link to a credible source which says the weight of the WDH goes against the receiver rating?

You are correct that the weight of the WDH does add to the vertical load on the receiver.
However, the stresses in the receiver are primarily controlled by the pitch-axis torque applied to the receiver.
The pitch-axis torque is primarily controlled by the amount of load transfer required, and that is controlled by tongue weight.
The weight of the WDH does not have a significant effect.

If you are concerned by the amount of vertical force applied to the receiver, you should consider:
1) the weight of the WDH does add to the vertical force on the receiver,
2) the tongue weight does add to the vertical force on the receiver, and
3) the load transferred to the TT's axle is deducted from the vertical force on the receiver.

If you follow Ford's 2006 specification of returning the front end to its unhitched height, you will need to trans fer a load equal to about 25% of the tongue weight to the TT's axles.The load transferred to the TT's axles will be greater than the weight of the WDH.
This means the net vertical force on the receiver actually will be less than the tongue weight.
There's no need to subtract the weight of the WDH from the receiver's tongue weight rating.

Ron

myredracer wrote:
The brochure we were given when custom ordering our 2014 Spree had the dry weights listed for our model and no mention was made of weight of options or that the wt. increase can be significant. I don't see any explanation as to how the actual tongue weight could be 960 lbs vs. the 518 brochure figure. No explanation as to why we only have 200 lbs of CCC left. We have a new 2014 Spree model coming in the new year (262RKS version, basically same as 261RKS). The dealer was unable to give us any info. on weight of options or what the actual wt. will be as delivered.---

I think you are in the unfortunate situation of having to order a new model before the design is finalized.
If that's the case, then the preliminary brochure "specifications" will not be of much help.
However, that's usually not the case.

Ron

I've always just made sure that the trailer GVWR is well below the tow capacity of the tow vehicle. Less confusion, less jibberish. Right now my tow vehicle (nissan frontier) has a tow cap of 6100 lbs.
the GVWR of my TT is 3532 lbs.

I tend to run conservative on most things, I don't like tearing thing up, or bogging down on the highway.

Crespro wrote:
We are shopping for a trailer for our daughter and son-in-law. They bought a 2006 Ford Expedition with tow package.

The trailers we are looking at are UVW of about 6,000 and loaded weight of about 7,200, with maximum weight of about 8,000.

The projected numbers are:

GCVW of 14,500 with Ford at 6,300 and trailer at 7,300=13,600.

Tongue weight of 780 with max rated of 895.

Trailer weight of 7,300 with max trailer of 8,000 and TV of 8,900.

I am new to trailers, so am asking if this looks good?

Two thing IMO to watch out for ...

1. The 14,500 GCWR is more of a performance rating, but IMO going much over around 80% of the GCWR for a vehicle can make for a less than desirable towing experience especially in less than optimum towing conditions.

2. That 895lbs I believe is the receiver rating when using a WD system and the wt. of the WDH (around 100lbs typically) goes against that receiver rating leaving you a dead tongue wt. limit of around 700lbs which using the 12 to 15% of the TT wt. gives you a loaded trailer wt. max of between 4700 (15%) and 5800 (12%). These numbers are a far cry from the 8900 max for the Expy I think we are talking about, but I think the specs say a max TT wt of 0-8900 and those do fall in that range. You will probably find that TW can vary a HUGE amount and a lot of the "dry tongue wts" shown in TT brochures and advertising can be severly under estimated. Going from say a 700 to 900lb TW to a 1200 to 1400 actual tongue wt. is not unheard of. The two remaining factors are the GVWR and RAWR of the Expy which you should be staying under.

As a WAG using 1000lbs of stuff to put in the trailer the UVW of the trailer then should be in the 3700 to 4800 range and that puts you in the lower end of a lot of the trailers size wise. You can certainly get a decent sized trailer in that range, but you have to look for them and be ready for compromises.

Larry

We are shopping for a trailer for our daughter and son-in-law. They bought a 2006 Ford Expedition with tow package.

The trailers we are looking at are UVW of about 6,000 and loaded weight of about 7,200, with maximum weight of about 8,000.

The projected numbers are:

GCVW of 14,500 with Ford at 6,300 and trailer at 7,300=13,600.

Tongue weight of 780 with max rated of 895.

Trailer weight of 7,300 with max trailer of 8,000 and TV of 8,900.

I am new to trailers, so am asking if this looks good?

FE

The brochure we were given when custom ordering our 2014 Spree had the dry weights listed for our model and no mention was made of weight of options or that the wt. increase can be significant. I don't see any explanation as to how the actual tongue weight could be 960 lbs vs. the 518 brochure figure. No explanation as to why we only have 200 lbs of CCC left. We have a new 2014 Spree model coming in the new year (262RKS version, basically same as 261RKS). The dealer was unable to give us any info. on weight of options or what the actual wt. will be as delivered. Basically, we are just going to get whatever we get... Our current Spree has no yellow sticker on it stating the UVW as it was when it left the factory, just a white sticker inside a cabinet door literally within a few lbs of the brochure and website figures. CCC on the sticker on front left with tire data has the same wt. as the brochure & website. I know about their qualifier on weight but it doesn't really help, or explain what one actually ends up with. I see that they have upped the brochure UVW and tongue wt and lowered the CCC for the 2014 version for essentially the same unit. For us, weights on our TT has been a real eye opener and learning experience and it started the day after we took possession of it.

Ron Gratz wrote:

myredracer wrote:
As said, dry weight numbers are fictional. Manufacturers love to use them for marketing purposes to outdo the competition and lure you into buying something that you may not if you knew what the actual weight would be like. The actual weight always goes up. By the time you've ordered options, the dealer adds items (propane tanks, ex.), you installed fixed items (2nd TV, ex.), done some modifications and have it all loaded up for camping, the weight goes up a lot. Typically in the 1,000 - 1,500 lb range, or even more for larger units. The added weight comes right off the advertised cargo carrying capacity and in the end, you could have very little left over. In some cases, you can even end up being overloaded.

It might help to define which "dry weight" numbers you're talking about. For example, the 2012 KZ Spree brochure lists

UVW (Unloaded Vehicle Weight)*

and states,
"

*This weight reflects the rolling average unit weight for each model. Your trailer weight will vary according to optional equipment.

"

There is no way a manufacturer can print a brochure with actual weights for all possible configurations, and no buyer should be surprised that options and other additions are not included in the brochure "dry weight" -- especially when the brochure says they are not.

If you're placing an order for a trailer, the dealer can give you a realistic estimate of weight of options.
If you're buying a trailer off the lot, the weight sticker at the front of the left side is supposed to give the weight of the trailer as it left the factory -- including all factory-installed options plus weight of propane.
If a dealer installs equipment exceeding about 100# total, the sticker is supposed to be amended.

It's not that difficult to come up with a usable estimate of "dry weight" before you purchase a trailer.

The advertised 2735 lbs is bs. The actual won't even be close to that.---

Not necessarily. The 2013 Fun Finder Brochure lists a F-189FBS with Dry Weight = 3155# and GVWR = 5890.
Desert Coach RV lists a 2013 F-189FBS with Dry Weight = 2998# and the following options:
Fun Finder Camping Pack, Fun Finder Exterior and Interior PKG, Fantastic Vent, Convection Microwave Oven, Ultra-Lite Power Jack Pack.
Some dealer websites post values from the manufacturer's brochure, some post values from the trailer's yellow sticker.

Ron