Will a 3/4 ton do

[rarin_2go]

I have an rv that is at the 14000 GVWR. I need a new tow vehicle and was wondering if a 2500 or 3/4 ton truck would safely tow this. I would appreciate your knowledgeable input on this. Would this being a 5th wheel make a difference?

Thanks

[S_Davis]

Grit dog wrote:

S Davis wrote:
If you like messing with your vehicles go 3/4 ton, I towed a 14,000lb gooseneck with a 2013 2500HD and had to add helper springs, upgraded shocks and upgraded tires. My pin weight was over 3000lbs.

And yet aside from spring rate, the trucks are the same. Hence the helper springs. The other 2 items you’re claiming are just for effect, since 1 ton srw trucks are available with the same wheels and tires as 3/4 tons and shocks, well, 90% of factory shocks are less than stellar and they have no bearing on load carrying capacity.
Nice try though.

I’ll give you the shocks even though they can make the difference between a good towing experience and not. I have an issue overloading tires I guess you don’t? My factory tires were 6400lbs and hooked up the rear axle was about 7000lbs.

[blt2ski]

Jerry, correct on limiters. Some larger trucks in the class 6+ even if they have revs available, will not let a rig go over "72" mph as an example.
Just as most diesels have torque limiters. Back in the day with 400-500 lb ft of torque, max 6-1 ratio 1st gears, you might get 3000 lb ft out of the trans. With today's 10sp trans at 4.5 x 2 with a TC, 9-1, now multiply that by 1000 lb ft of torque, one has 9000 lb ft coming out of the trans in first gear. Hence why most manufactures have 1.5-12" gear sets. The 10.5s would grenade. We won't talk about the 8.5 in my 1500! Lol.

Marty

[BenK]

Yup, expected it going this way and ask "why did the OEM's install computer control to limit over rev'ing"

Then...would the OEM's now manage other ratings ?

They have most of the "stuff" NOW in current vehicles

Like the several threads here both asking and showing off an aftermarket gizmo that can measure & display how much is being towed just by plugging into the computer port with nothing else to be added or changed...though that vehicle has to be an automatic, not manual

Ditto payload, but there needs to be an addition of strain gauges to both axles

Then just software like the current...modern...Redline limiter so that there isn't a redline on tachometers anymore

Another are speed limiters, torque limiters, etc

If enough folks ignore OEM ratings that then drive up warranty & service costs...yup, the OEM's will do something

Finally, tuners and their ability to circumvent OEM ratings...but the OEM's have the fed's there to police tuner firms

Edit..yup, am an old guy at 74 this year

Been retired over 20 years from careers in automation, robotics, process controls, computers, etc and all associated with military applications

Funny to continue to find that the basic algorithms are still recognizable to me. Their logic, flow, bubble, truth tables, etc all look similar to those of my day

Difference is that the stuff has gotten ever smaller and integrated

[MFL]

blt2ski wrote:

BenK wrote:
There is one OEM rating that all of the anti-ratings advisors do believe in and that is the ICE "red line"

Haven't read anyone here recommend going over it...nor "I've been doing it for years with no problems"...or..."go for it"...

Unless you have a non computer controlled motor, redline pretty much does not mean a thing in today's motors. The computer shut fuel down if you reach too high of revs, so you can't over rev a motor generally speaking today.
Some like the Dmax I had would only let me get to around 3500 accelerating, but engine braking was 5000 or so.
My idi 7.3, and 6.5td diesel shut off fuel at 3000 and 3500 mechanically.
Not sure one could over rev a motor made in the last 20-25 years, be it has or diesel.

Marty

Right on Marty...Ben's thinking is a bit dated at times!

Even my FZ1 Yamaha has a limiter. The fun news...it is 12,200 rpm, so right around 90 mph in 1st. Won't hit the limiter in 6th though, using the stock gearing.

Jerry

[blt2ski]

Spoon,

The CVEO that taught some weight law classes I took, used a Toyota pickup as an example, but licensed it to 100,000 lbs pulling a trailer, blowing it up as it made the mile after pulling for 10 miles. No law against it!

Marty

[blt2ski]

BenK wrote:
There is one OEM rating that all of the anti-ratings advisors do believe in and that is the ICE "red line"

Haven't read anyone here recommend going over it...nor "I've been doing it for years with no problems"...or..."go for it"...

Unless you have a non computer controlled motor, redline pretty much does not mean a thing in today's motors. The computer shut fuel down if you reach too high of revs, so you can't over rev a motor generally speaking today.
Some like the Dmax I had would only let me get to around 3500 accelerating, but engine braking was 5000 or so.
My idi 7.3, and 6.5td diesel shut off fuel at 3000 and 3500 mechanically.
Not sure one could over rev a motor made in the last 20-25 years, be it has or diesel.

Marty

[spoon059]

BurbMan wrote:
You obviously know more about trucks than I do...I do not know for a fact that the axles on a 2500 and 3500 are the same. I only posted the results from my trip to the scale and compared them to the ratings on my truck and the ratings published for a 2500.

I've been contributing to this forum since 2001, 11+ years before you joined, so if anybody is trolling it's you. The OP asked a question about weights and you're trying your best to turn this into an argument.

I believe that ratings are there for a reason, you obviously think they are concocted for political reasons have have no basis in fact. As my Dad used to say, "You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it may be."

The ratings are for warranty and registration purposes only. You can register a Tacoma to 14,000 lbs and load it up and be perfectly LEGAL, though I doubt it would move very far.

There used to be a larger mechanical difference between 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, but the manufacturers long ago realized that it is much cheaper and easier to put essenentially the same rolling chassis under either truck and change the spring pack and the sticker on the door to meet the DOT requirements for a class 2B truck.
The spring pack is easy to overcome, with helper springs, Timbrens or air bags.
The sticker can simply be ignored and your truck registered for whatever weights you are willing to pay.

My Ram has AAM 11.5" axles in the rear. They are rated to 12,000 lbs by AAM, derated to 7,000 lbs for the 3500 and 6,500 lbs for the 2500 with 18" rims, and 6,000 for the 2500 with 17" rims. Same axle.
The brakes, wheel studs, engine, transmission, rear differential, bumpers, bed, body, tires, radiator, etc are exactly the same. The frame is slightly different, just due to the shock mounts from the 2500 coil to the 3500 leaf. Ram rates the coils at 500 lbs lower than the leaf springs. If that 500 lbs worries someone, they can put bags or Timbrens to make up the difference.

The only reason that truck manufacturers make a 3/4 ton these days is to get into the class 2B market, which only allows a vehicle a max GVWR of 10,000 lbs. You can by a Ford F350 with a 10,000 lbs sticker, does that make it any less capable than an identical F350 with an 11,500 sticker?

[MFL]

BurbMan wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:
Jerry Said....."Yes, it is obvious Grit knows more about trucks than you, as do many other members!"

That kinda hurt me a little. 😉

So "knowing" about trucks means "knowing" that the manufacturers' ratings are BS? Well, I guess I'm an idiot.

burb...You will be alright...don't beat yourself up! Lol

For Ron....something for a little hurt.:C

[BurbMan]

Cummins12V98 wrote:
Jerry Said....."Yes, it is obvious Grit knows more about trucks than you, as do many other members!"

That kinda hurt me a little. 😉

So "knowing" about trucks means "knowing" that the manufacturers' ratings are BS? Well, I guess I'm an idiot.

[Cummins12V98]

Jerry Said....."Yes, it is obvious Grit knows more about trucks than you, as do many other members!"

That kinda hurt me a little. 😉

[Cummins12V98]

ShinerBock wrote:
Only in the RVnet forum would we boast about our favorite brand’s 3500 DRW being rated to tow more than 4 times its weight yet freak out when someone asks about an 8k lb HD 2500 truck towing 1.75 times its weight.

DUDE, don't you know the HIPS make all the difference???????

[BenK]

There is one OEM rating that all of the anti-ratings advisors do believe in and that is the ICE "red line"

Haven't read anyone here recommend going over it...nor "I've been doing it for years with no problems"...or..."go for it"...

[BurbMan]

Grit dog wrote:
I’m sorry some don’t understand vehicles enough to know what is safe or not. Cheers dudes!

Again, all I did was post my actual weights and the manufacturer's ratings for my truck and the same truck in a 2500.....I am not in any way making a statement about what is safe or not. Apparently you know much more than the manufacturers do about the meaning of ratings. You should be working for FCA, they would love to have you in the engineering dept....oh wait, are you an engineer?

[blt2ski]

ShinerBock wrote:
Only in the RVnet forum would we boast about our favorite brand’s 3500 DRW being rated to tow more than 4 times its weight yet freak out when someone asks about an 8k lb HD 2500 truck towing 1.75 times its weight.

In the 80s, I was given a rule of thumb max trailer behind a given chassis at 2x graw.
Max gcwr of 3x grawr or 2x gvw.

Probably worked to a degree back in the day.

BUT, is gvw the sum of two axles, or reduced number as many rigs have?

Even these types of "rules" thoughts can be decieving. Just as the sales brochure numbers can be.

At the end of the day, one needs proper payload, and drivetrain to meet end users performance standards. If it's missing one or the other, said truck is not what that person needs or wants.

Marty

[BenK]

Agree !

When it comes to science & technology discussions on these freebie forums...heck even my paid forums...too many advisors have no skin in the game in the OP's questions & situation

Then the ratings misconceptions and even some who dismiss ratings will then reference another 'ratings' that they do follow

On top of all that...they do know that all designs have some level of dialed in margin and is 'good for it'...of course yes...but for how long and how safely during that Mr Murphy moment. "Design margin" is a closely held secret and it would take a court order to disclose and then under strict NDA with large fines if they break the NDA

Bottom line for me...if someone asks for this kind of advice...they don't know enough about that situation to make up their own risk management decision(s) and will reference them to their OEM's specifications & manuals for THEIR vehicle & setup

To the many PMs asking, tell them to also look at the history of posts of the party they are asking me to either debunk or verify and make up their own minds if that advisor matches their own values

Also agree with what Shiner said on another thread and is that am not coming over here as often as before

PA12DRVR wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:
Only in the RVnet forum would we boast about our favorite brand’s 3500 DRW being rated to tow more than 4 times its weight yet freak out when someone asks about an 8k lb HD 2500 truck towing 1.75 times its weight.

Well, technically, that's accurate, but the paradigm is duplicated on other forums that I visit:

- On a hunting forum, apparently Dall Sheep will instantly die and be magically transported to a landing strip if Experienced Hunter X even mentions going hunting, but when Hunter X responds to Newbie Hunter's question of the best method to stalk Dall Sheep, Experienced Hunter X simply states: "You'll never be able to sheep hunt unless you have 20 years experience"....and how pray tell does one get that experience?

- Or on the airplane forum: Some PA-12 driver states: "I've landed on XYZ River Bar a few times, always a bit dicey to touch down soon enough if it's windy." (allegedly) Experienced Pilot X then asserts: "XYZ River Bar looks like it's at least 300' long, any Piper pilot worthy of the name can land there without a problem." PA-12 driver: "Have you ever landed there, particularly when the wind is from the East?" Pilot X: "Well, no, but I've flown over it once." :R