Will a 3/4 ton do

[rarin_2go]

I have an rv that is at the 14000 GVWR. I need a new tow vehicle and was wondering if a 2500 or 3/4 ton truck would safely tow this. I would appreciate your knowledgeable input on this. Would this being a 5th wheel make a difference?

Thanks

[Lantley]

Grit you hit the nail on the head. All the ratings, parameters etc. are based on the lowest common denominator.
They are not set for the most seasoned veteran. They are not caculated for those who have BTDT. They are set for the weakest, dumbest ,most frail individual.
Why? Because those individuals are out there too. Those are the people that need the guidance. If we can keep the weakest safe and in line than we can keep everyone safe.
Should we set the speed limit based on Tony Stewart's ability?
Maybe make life jacket standards based on Michael Phelps' talent?
That is why so many get excited when we discuss ignoring certain parameters.
Or that this rating is not critical.
They all matter if you are part of the lowest common denominator crowd!
More importantly this crowd really exist and we share the roads with them everyday. We should not encourage them to do anything but follow the rules,guidelines and parameters as written.
We know the dumbest of the dumb are capable of ruining the day for a lot of experienced, seasoned genuises!...LOL

[Grit_dog]

PA12DRVR wrote:
"Our computers would have recorded, sounded an alarm at each overload attempt and refused to move after a preset number of trys. Some required a keyed reset after reaching those numbers of trys...this is why said pretty soon, OEMs will control more to all ratings like they now do with ICE rev limiters"

Not quite the same but as a young buck installing piping on a natural-gas-fired-steam boiler-steam turbine power generating plant, I was in the plant when a series of out of spec issues (low steam flow on one turbine, excess on another, failed gas valve delivering full fuel to a boiler running at 40% capacity, etc) resulted in an automatic system "shutdown"....the most dramatic effects of which were the steam blowdown (wherein a 10" sch. 80 steel line wiggled like an RV hose between supports spaced circa 80' apart) and the max capacity gas flare. Lots of shiny lights and interesting sounds.

An out-of-spec truck trailer combo won't result in the same sort of fireworks, but at the end of the day, one has to decide whether they will stay in spec or not. Hopefully if they go out of spec, there is some analysis behind that decision.

Good analogy. As the crane analogy whoever brought up is accurate, albeit not comparable.
Crane standards (go figure, I have 25 years running cranes and running projects that use cranes and designing critical and engineered lifts, as well...) require 100% of chart (whether based on tipping or structural capacity) to be a maximum of 85% of the worst case static AND dynamic loading for a given weight. None of y'all that cant believe a 3/4 ton is good for more than 10k will even begin to understand dynamic loading factors....but, I digress.... I'll give the synopsis though and dynamic loading factors could increase short term loading by another 10, 20, 30%.
So now we have 15% min factor of safety (FS) for full duty cycle use at 100% of chart. PLUS up to 30% greater FS if dynamic loading factors (wind, side loading or end loading booms, unintended dynamic weight transfer in multi crane lifts, etc). THESE are the factors you don't want to start pushing the limits of...real world break s hit, crane collapse stuff.
Now OSHA/L&I require any multi crane picks, any Christmas tree rigging over 3 levels, or any single pick over 75% of the chart to be either a critical or engineered, stamped, lift.

THEN due to liability, real or perceived, companies like the ones I work for also have requirements to de-rate the REAL chart ratings, even if within the governmental controls (OSHA) to 75%-80% of the real ratings already factored for everything I mentioned above.

Same deal, my Company (the scared person who is afraid to put more than 2000lbs in the back of a 3/4 ton truck and prohibits towing with a 1/2 ton altogether...real story, I'm breaking policy by simply hooking up an arrow board to the back of my half ton) IS effectively the administrative control that self imposed increases requirements to protect themselves from the lowest common denominator person who has no clue and try to make it safe for them too.

SO if YOU as a person, fit into the lowest common denominator category, then YES, YOU should absolutely go buy more truck than you need to help save yourself and others from yourself. For the rest of us that have at least average intelligence and ability, we are safe operating off "the chart" at least in the crane analogy...

[PA12DRVR]

"Our computers would have recorded, sounded an alarm at each overload attempt and refused to move after a preset number of trys. Some required a keyed reset after reaching those numbers of trys...this is why said pretty soon, OEMs will control more to all ratings like they now do with ICE rev limiters"

Not quite the same but as a young buck installing piping on a natural-gas-fired-steam boiler-steam turbine power generating plant, I was in the plant when a series of out of spec issues (low steam flow on one turbine, excess on another, failed gas valve delivering full fuel to a boiler running at 40% capacity, etc) resulted in an automatic system "shutdown"....the most dramatic effects of which were the steam blowdown (wherein a 10" sch. 80 steel line wiggled like an RV hose between supports spaced circa 80' apart) and the max capacity gas flare. Lots of shiny lights and interesting sounds.

An out-of-spec truck trailer combo won't result in the same sort of fireworks, but at the end of the day, one has to decide whether they will stay in spec or not. Hopefully if they go out of spec, there is some analysis behind that decision.

[Grit_dog]

mkirsch wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
The "difference" is some people posses a greater knowledge and the ability to use it to make educated decisions.

Don't sugar coat it. What you mean is, some people ignored the weight ratings, and nothing bad happened, so are now self-proclaimed "experts" on pickup truck design.

Yes, I'm sure that happens...But you're trying to put words in my mouth.

Since none of the folks who believe all the factory "ratings" usually have anything of substance to back up their claims that exceeding some "ratings" is "bad", I'll ask another question.

How did Ford and GM seemingly magically up the GVWR significantly on their 3/4 tons, by more than 1000lbs in some cases with no discernable changes to anything on the truck?

(Hint, the answer was just posted by Shiner....)

[Grit_dog]

cptqueeg wrote:


IPA's are so 2018. The hipsters have moved on! (NTIGAF)

What kind of beer is NTIGAF? LOL

[ShinerBock]

mkirsch wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
The "difference" is some people posses a greater knowledge and the ability to use it to make educated decisions.

Don't sugar coat it. What you mean is, some people ignored the weight ratings, and nothing bad happened, so are now self-proclaimed "experts" on pickup truck design.

No, what he means is some people may have been in the commercial truck industry for 20 plus years and have spec'ed thousands of class 2-8 trucks for commercial fleets to know which classes/truck ratings are limited by old federal and state laws that bureaucrats do not want to change because it is revenue from fleets and which classes/truck ratings are actually limited by the capabilities of their mechanical parts.

Tell me this.
My 2500's front axle is the same as the 3500 version.
My 2500's front suspension is the same as the 3500 version.
My 2500's frame strength is the same as the 3500 version.
My 2500's brakes is the same as the 3500 version.
My 2500's rear axle is the same as the 3500 version.
My rear suspension is the only thing different from the 3500.

My 2500 has a GCWR of 25,000 lbs.
The 3500 has a GCWR pf 25,000 lbs.
My 2500 has a trailer rating of around 17,000 lbs
The 3500 has a trailer rating of around 17,000 lbs
My 2500 has a front GAWR of 6,000 lbs.
The 3500 has a front GAWR of 6,000 lbs.
My 2500 has a rear GAWR of 6,500 lbs.
The 3500 has a rear GAWR of 7,000 lbs.

Only 500 lbs separates their axle ratings yet because the 2500 is a class 2b truck it is limited to 10k GVWR(which means lower payload as well) while the 3500 has a 12,300 GVWR since it is a class 3 truck which has a max limit of 14k GVWR. Only 500 lbs separate their total GAWR's yet 2,300 sperate their GVWR(and payload). Tell me how you think it is limited by hard parts and not laws and regulations?

[mkirsch]

Grit dog wrote:
The "difference" is some people posses a greater knowledge and the ability to use it to make educated decisions.

Don't sugar coat it. What you mean is, some people ignored the weight ratings, and nothing bad happened, so are now self-proclaimed "experts" on pickup truck design.

[ShinerBock]

Lantley wrote:
And this is where it all goes hay wire. We don't want to accept the ratings.
We want to challenge them and re-rate the ratings.
We want to decide which are valid and which are not.
Which ratings apply to our scenario and which can be ignored.
At some point it boils down to either you abide by them or you don't.
I undersrtand some are tax,ratings and registration ratings but in the end they all serve a purpose.
I don't believe your combo is going to explode if you exceed a rating.
However I firmly believe a combo that is within all of its ratings will ultimately be safer and out perform a combo that is within some of its ratings.
In the end 1500,2500,3500 SRW,3500 dually, MDT,HDT basically step up in performance ratings and capabilty.
Stick with all the parameters and your combo will be fine. Or you can Pick and choose the ones you like and pretend there is no ratings system.

It did serve a purpose at one point in time about half a century ago when the class system was created. However, the magical 10k GVWR got imbedded in many state laws as the toping point between commercial and personal vehicles so even if the US DOT and EPA were to alter the truck classes to increase class 2b or have it break away into its own class, there would still be many different state laws limiting it to 10k.

This the main reason why most 250/2500's are limited to 10k and many 350/3500s can have their GVWR altered free of charge through fleet services to 10k. GM actually just recently broke away from this 10k GVWR limitation on some of their 2500's and they are actually class three trucks just like the 3500's. They still offer 10k trucks for fleets, but have higher GVWR limits for those buying a 2500 for personal use.

Also, as Grit stated, it is not always black and white. There are many laws and limits that have grey areas. Take Texas prima facie speed limits(Transportation code 545.352). Even though a county road may have a posted speed limit of 55 mph, I can legally go up to 70 mph(65 at night) if it is safe to do so(ie little traffic, dry road, etc.). Many people and even police officers do not know about this law. So to many who are ignorant about the law and only look at things as black and white, they see the posted speed limit as being there for a reason and is the max safety limit when in reality it is not. The prima facia speed limit is. Same goes with the GVWR the manufacturer is forced to give the 2500 under 10k. It is not binding to the consumer in the eyes of the law, the registered GVWR is and you can even register your vehicles to exceed the manufacturers GVWR in many states.

[BenK]

Wish there was a like button...

What would happen to the operators of that crane if they went over rated load ? Even though they knew the posted load rating...know the answer and rhetorically asking for the group

First career was in industrial motor controls and one market sector was cranes (material handling). Circa late 60's to mid 80's

Know they had engraved metal ratings labels riveted to the crane, operators cab and on the pendent controller

Our computers would have recorded, sounded an alarm at each overload attempt and refused to move after a preset number of trys. Some required a keyed reset after reaching those numbers of trys...this is why said pretty soon, OEMs will control more to all ratings like they now do with ICE rev limiters

Nuclear and military had more onerous notifications and margins vs civilian of the exact same mechanicals...though they often had locational requirement in the +/- 0.03 inch at some tonnage, which had additional mechanicals, etc


Prefer stout's or porter's

ford truck guy wrote:
Tire ratings / axle ratings are just like Over Head Crane ratings..

They are rated to a certain rating with a safety factor on top of that.. They POST the rate based on every day usage.. Most people will see that they can carry XXX amount of weight and go full Hog till they cant..

I can assure you, If they rated our overhead cranes to 15 ton instead of 10 ton, we would be lifting 15T every day, all day... in a nut shell - There is a safety factor built into EVERYTHING with a MAX capacity.. just how much = ??

[cptqueeg]

Grit dog wrote:

ford truck guy wrote:
well......

8 pages of normal RV.Net truck capability arguments and the original OP ( rarin'2go ) was a 1 and done poster on THIS thread.....

I will say that is is/was interesting reading all the response.. what did I learn??

Grit know a TON about trucks and thier capibilities, as do a lot of others..
Cummins HATES IPA
and a Toyota can tow a space shuttle !

Add Grit LIKES IPA to your list of takeaways! Not the trying to be cool with your hipster buds, stifle the bitter beer face like. I just like 'em!
High octane beer! What's not to like??

IPA's are so 2018. The hipsters have moved on! (NTIGAF)

[Grit_dog]

^Nope, you make it sound far too black and white.
The "difference" is some people posses a greater knowledge and the ability to use it to make educated decisions.
Some don't and are good with the "ratings" which for all intents and purposes, to your point, yield the safest application. Whether "safe" is just a feeling or actual.

And others, who don't know, are looking for the words they want to hear.

Except on this forum, it's generally 10 NOs to 1 YES when if comes to anything technical.

[Lantley]

And this is where it all goes hay wire. We don't want to accept the ratings.
We want to challenge them and re-rate the ratings.
We want to decide which are valid and which are not.
Which ratings apply to our scenario and which can be ignored.
At some point it boils down to either you abide by them or you don't.
I undersrtand some are tax,ratings and registration ratings but in the end they all serve a purpose.
I don't believe your combo is going to explode if you exceed a rating.
However I firmly believe a combo that is within all of its ratings will ultimately be safer and out perform a combo that is within some of its ratings.
In the end 1500,2500,3500 SRW,3500 dually, MDT,HDT basically step up in performance ratings and capabilty.
Stick with all the parameters and your combo will be fine. Or you can Pick and choose the ones you like and pretend there is no ratings system.

[blt2ski]

I might even know said safety rating.
My bobcat for example, lift capacity is 1/2 the tip load.manufacture gives me spec for how where and when the rear wheels lift off the ground. Said load ratings have been spot on.
The tires on it, same size ply rating as one of my past 2500's. But 4500 lbs per tire, instead of 3000....hmmm....look in tire specs, my loader tires are rated for 3000 lbs if driven over 25 mph. Meanwhile, my LT tires are rated at 4500 lbs, if kept at speeds under 25 mph.
Like ALL things great and small, in many cases, one can have multiple ratings for the same item. How it's used or speed can make for multiple ratings.

Marty

[ford_truck_guy]

Tire ratings / axle ratings are just like Over Head Crane ratings..

They are rated to a certain rating with a safety factor on top of that.. They POST the rate based on every day usage.. Most people will see that they can carry XXX amount of weight and go full Hog till they cant..

I can assure you, If they rated our overhead cranes to 15 ton instead of 10 ton, we would be lifting 15T every day, all day... in a nut shell - There is a safety factor built into EVERYTHING with a MAX capacity.. just how much = ??

[ShinerBock]

BenK wrote:
Exactly and is more of OPs waiting for what they want to hear...

Selective adherence to ratings...even the most anti-rating advisors revere some ratings

Well, as I stated before, it depends on what is limiting the rating. If it is actually hard parts limiting the rating then I would be more inclined to abide by them. If it is half a century old laws and regulations(like truck class GVWR limits) forcing the limits then I am less inclined to abide by them and then refer to the limits of the hard parts. If I am ignorant to what the limiting factor is or I am not 100% sure then I generally abide by the rating and treat it like a hard part limitation.