Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

Rick etc.

I am of the view that we have taken this issue as far as we can without additional data and money.

Based on the technical evidence at hand, there is no reason to believe that you are responsible for the failure.

I know many people, including technical experts, are reading this.

Think we need to hand the problem off to them and the rest of us keep a close watch on the grapevine (like conferences) to get a hint of their next action.

There is anecdotal evidence that a meeting was held (and recorded) about this and action may be forthcoming.

BenK wrote:

Also, I'm convinced that the CP4 pump's architecture is
inherently flawed. Therefore, how can they then hold the owners responsible?

In the good old days, hang, drawn and quarter the owners unless they confessed.

:B

BenK wrote:

As their filtration and separator systems do NOT remove 100% of the
H2O. Therefore, how can they then hold the owners responsible?

Diesel is hygroscopic, and biodiesel very much so.



I turned up this advisory as to how to deal with bio contamination:

Determination:

An assessment of any current problem can be
ascertained by testing for ATP (adenosine
triphosphate).
ATP is a protein secreted by all living
organisms and will provide the amount of
CFU’s (Colony Forming Units) in a sample.

Standard ATP testing can detect one cell
per milliliter. A portable ATP Tester gives an
accurate result, on site within seconds.
Once this has been completed and the
results show a contamination problem, a
number of options are available:

Treatment

Once this has been completed and the
results show a contamination problem, a
number of options are available:
Chemical treatment of the diesel tanks,
including agitation of the contents and
disposal of the fuel, by specialist
contractors. This treatment would need
to be continuous as fresh diesel is used
to replenish the storage tank.
Purging of the fuel tank, with
replacement by fresh diesel. Together
with:
Purging of all fuel lines, replacement of
filters, and overhaul and cleaning of the
injector.
Chemical treatment is extremely
hazardous to health and considered
deadly if handled incorrectly. A
specialist contractor will need to be
used for this process.

Alternatives;

If the chemical treatment is not completed
continuously then there is a high probability
that contamination will reoccur.
One alternative solution to continuous
chemical treatment would be to modify the
diesel fuel line to incorporate a Bacterial
Plasmoliser between the diesel tank and
the engine.
Such a unit allows the microbes to pass
easily through the fuel filters which are then
consumed in the combustion process
without affecting engine performance.

From a Loss Prevention Note of a major insurance carrier.

NewsW wrote:
Biodiesel shelf life (or Ethanol)...


Our fuel systems are not "use and deplete" systems where most of the fuel is gone before a new tank is added.

Often we have a half tank of fuel and refill.

My 1980 Silverado C10 has dual 20 gallon tanks and do run them
'dry' to then switch over to the other one. When see one close to
empty, try to run it out on the freeway so there is enough enertia
to switch it and have the engine continue to pump and clear the lines

That is the only one of my vehicles that can do that

If this is the case, what is it doing to the aging of a biologically active material in there?

Microbes can be growing quite rapidly --- and then an infusion of fresh fuel... just give them more food?

What else is needed from the microbes beside biodiesel?

Water? CO2?

What is the metabolic pathway?

What is preventing this system from going full bloom?






A similar problem is encountered every day at salad bars, and restaurants that serve food cafeteria style where the stuff is continuously replenished.

How long do they let it "go" (unrefrigerated / heated") before the whole batch need to be thrown out rather than just replenished?

Since parents owned a mom'n pop grocery/butcher shop, I know
HOW2 manage perishable stock and say you are smack on target now
that there is a new component for our fuel supply...think gasoline
not far behind diesel

One of my ME's (manufacturing engineer) parents owned a small restaurant
in the middle of the Calif Valley. Got into this discussion during
a CDR and finally got him...he claimed everything was washed and
refreshed...till we got to their gravy pot...it was NEVER tossed out
just changed...new gravy made and the old poured into the new
pot...since 24/7 truck stop, never turned off the burner on that
gravy pot and famous for their gravy...

He was one of my 'bad cops' (others were legal and service) to my
design teams. Mostly the threat of no approving anything during CRDs
As they were the receiving entity of the design to manufacture and service

That is where the type of questioning I've been posting is about.
Ditto during postmortems after FCS (first customer shipment).

This new fuel metric will make this HPFP's issues worse

Am now positive that there are cavitation issues on two areas. The
cylinder and the cam cavity.

Additionally (think this is the main issue), if the piston is NOT
positively captured to the follower, it will leave contact with
the follower to potentially cavitate the cylinder and then get slammed
by the follower during the 'up' stroke, which will over time create
debris

That all happens when the 'metering' piston shuts off flow to
the cylinder and as referenced, it is during deceleration and/or EB

Bio & H2O just icing on top of the above issues

Am now willing to say that all of the OEM's have no ground to stand
on in reference to H2O.

As their filtration and separator systems do NOT remove 100% of the
H2O. Therefore, how can they then hold the owners responsible?

Also, I'm convinced that the CP4 pump's architecture is
inherently flawed. Therefore, how can they then hold the owners responsible?

Biodiesel shelf life (or Ethanol)...


Our fuel systems are not "use and deplete" systems where most of the fuel is gone before a new tank is added.

Often we have a half tank of fuel and refill.

If this is the case, what is it doing to the aging of a biologically active material in there?

Microbes can be growing quite rapidly --- and then an infusion of fresh fuel... just give them more food?

What else is needed from the microbes beside biodiesel?

Water? CO2?

What is the metabolic pathway?

What is preventing this system from going full bloom?






A similar problem is encountered every day at salad bars, and restaurants that serve food cafeteria style where the stuff is continuously replenished.

How long do they let it "go" (unrefrigerated / heated") before the whole batch need to be thrown out rather than just replenished?

If you toss out that 'meter', the exhaust valve back to the tank (assumption)
and just have one way valves in the cylinder head...

Run the pump at full bore...full PSI, full GPH and have proper coolant/lube
for the cam cavity

Add a good accumulator that attenuates: #1 the injector shock waves, #2 the
pump output PSI variations, #3 injector draw, #4 returns excess to the fuel tank #5 to have reserve PSI/GPH during hard acceleration
where the pump hasn't spun up yet

During deceleration and EB, manage reduced fueling via injector controls, or
are they not variable and just on/off? That could still be managed via not squirting
on each cylinder stroke, but every other or some such to let the pumping losses
slow down or the EB, which is to reduce fueling even more.

This is where me being a non-diesel guy hurts...am not for sure how an EB works

Not a fluids guy either, but willing to give it a go based on my controls and
process controls background...along with portions of that with hydraulic metal
rolling mill rams

Hope the controls, process controls and automation will suffice in figuring out
the sequencing...of course lots of help from you guys

Mainly, for now, labeling that cross section Niner posted

One big old red flag to me was seeing that metering piston 'there'. Makes no sense
as any kind of metering should be on the output side of something that can
blow the snot out of most anything

It should be either before, in or after the accumulator...and...meter it via
return line to the tank.

This where got the idea that the engineers were told 'no accumulator' and they
tried to side step it with wacky routing and 'metering', to create a vacuum
situation, some times, that then creates conditions to rip the softened DLC
to then create debris

Also, that the crank shaft/cam cavity is poorly done, if that cross section
is accurate.

To me, it's just a flow diagram with lots of oblique lines to bubble/functions
on another page. Just follow it to that end, and if more oblique lines, just
follow them too till that ends...etc...and always come back to the original
function(s)

An example...take the crank shaft/cam cavity.

Can see how they use the fuel as lube and coolant.

Maybe depended on the pumping or flow action of both the linear movement of the
follower (piston like) and the rotation of the cam, which acts like two paddles

The whole idea in that cavity is to lube and cool.

That then says fresh fluid and lots of it. As they decided to use an exotic
coating that is very expensive. Forensics says that, as cost is key to decisions
for that kind of solution.

Then one question...would they still need DLC if the flow of coolant and lube
'good enough' ???

That pumping/flow also has such in-efficiencies that I think the fluid does not
flow out much at all. Just re-cycles within the cavity to get hotter and hotter
all along possibly generating debris

That is because the intake port and exhaust port are right next to each other
(why need to know if this cross section is accurate).

There will be 'some' new fluid pulled or paddled into that re-cycled fluid area
to mix some fresh

The exhaust port has a relief valve/return to the tank

Curious why they have a 3rd port and continue to think of it as a tuning or
balance mechanism, but really don't know for now. Most likely in conjunction
with the metering valve...more later on that

Worst part of this cavity is that the area where the follower spring bottoms
is a dead end and can't see any way for fluid in there to ever get outta there.

Unless the piston to follower area has a hole of some sort to allow fluid to
flow down from there when the follower moves up/down

I would have put the exhaust or intake near where the spring bottoms and the other
port as far away as possible so that the flow to the injectors would have fluid
exchange the whole cavity all the time...not as I see it now where it pretty much
re-cycled with 'some' fresh mixed

Back to the metering valve and the exhaust port's relief valve that I'm assuming
goes back to the tank...why is there a relief valve here?

Is there a pre-pump that needs this when the metering piston is actuated?

This is where I think deceleration or EB comes in. They don't fuel during that,
or greatly diminish the fuel rates, right?

Since this pump is cog belt driven and no clutch, it will continue to pump no
matter what is going on and that the pulley is still being driven, right?

But since the pump is still driven and the piston continues to pump when the
metering piston pinches off any fuel supply, the piston/cylinder go vacuum, right?

That is where I think cavitation happens the most and during deceleration and/or EB, in the cylinder/piston NOT in the cam cavity

Now to the next one way valve at the top of the piston/cylinder. Okay, see that
and again, not the stuff before it

Now you are in a single rotation intake, exhaust of the piston working on the
two one way valves of the cylinder. Good, that is what it should be

But the piston does NOT seem to captured to the follower.

If captured it would create a vacuum in the cylinder via the two one way valves

If it is NOT, then the piston would not go down, but then how does it continually
go down during normal op?

Could that be the issue? When the follower changes direction and then bangs into
the bottom of the piston?

Over time and with enough 'metered' cycles creating bangs, it does cause some
debris in the back water, stagnant cam cavity?

Is that where the debris comes from?

Just some initiate thoughts and will noodle it some more tomorrow. Especially
if someone can spot the acronyms to the component/area.

Ricatic: how full of fuel were you when the HPFP went bad? Reason I asked is your statement of 300 miles on that tank, so it could not have been full.

Just an observation from me, going back to previous statements in this thread about amount of fuel in tanks and cooling/heating of same fuel due to returns from the fuel system back to the tank.

ben:

Think you are going to have to help with the fluid dynamics here... I am not a fluids guy.