Rollnhome wrote:
10ponies
19 Sep 2014
Yesterday I was fueling my toterhome at the Quick Trip truck stop on 51 Ave and I-10 in Phoenix. I was at the pumps marked "autos". I went into put down my card and the attendant told me I was at the wrong pump. I told her I am a registered RV. She said OK and off I went and started fueling.
lbligh wrote:msmith1199 wrote:lbligh wrote:msmith1199 wrote:lbligh wrote:Rollnhome wrote:
What is AZ definition of "Passenger Carrying Vehicle"? If it is not a motorhome then the tax doesn't apply no matter of weight or axles.
A simple Google of passenger carrying vehicle comes up with a commercial bus or motorcoach. However it is AZ definition of passenger carrying vehicle that matters in this case.
My next question is then, why do all other vehicles require a special or commercial drivers license and a motor home does not. All passenger carrying vehicles are commercial...why include this singular vehicle, motorhomes, into this otherwise commercial tax?
I think because MHS are Recreational Vehicles not Passenger Carrying Vehicles they are exempt from this otherwise commercial tax.
OK... then why are not RVs listed along with all the other type of vehicles that are exempt. Arizona has taken the time to list the exempt vehicles on their pump posting and RVs are not on that list. Everyone here wants to "interpret" a law when it appears that Arizona has made it pretty simple by listing those vehicles that are exempt.
Now don't take me wrong, I believe that Arizona is wrong not to have included RVs as noncommercial vehicles like every other state, but it is what it is.
Let me try this one more time. This law lists what vehicles are included. If a motorhome is not a passenger carrying vehicle, which I don't think it is, then it's not included to begin with so there is no reason to exempt a vehicle that isn't included. Most of the exemptions listed are for vehicles that otherwise fit the definition of included vehicles such as church buses, but because of who owns them or how they're used the are exempted.
That's why.
Well my friend, the law indeed specifically includes very specific language as to those vehicles that are INCLUDED AND EXCLUDED. All of the so called experts here cannot explain or wish away the facts. I have listed for everyone's edification below ARS 28-5432C which details all vehicles included and excluded. The specific and detailed explanation by the State of Arizona should answer all questions. As everyone should note, there is NO MENTION OF MOTORHOMES OR RVs. The text from the ARS Statute is as follows:
28-5432. Gross weight fees; application; exceptions
A. This article applies to all of the following:
1. A trailer or semitrailer with a gross weight of ten thousand pounds or less and that is used in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise.
2. A motor vehicle or vehicle combination if the motor vehicle or vehicle combination is designed, used or maintained primarily for the transportation of passengers for compensation or for the transportation of property.
3. A hearse, an ambulance or any other vehicle that is used by a mortician in the conduct of the mortician's business.
4. A commercial motor vehicle as defined in section 28-5201.
B. This article does not apply to:
1. A vehicle commonly referred to as a station wagon or to a vehicle commonly known as and referred to by the manufacturer's rating as a three-quarter ton or less pickup truck or three-quarter ton or less van unless such a vehicle is maintained and operated more than one thousand hours in a vehicle registration year for the transportation of passengers or property in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise. An applicant requesting title or registration of a motor vehicle in the name of a commercial enterprise shall pay the fees imposed by this article unless the applicant certifies on the application that the vehicle will not be maintained and operated in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise.
2. A trailer or semitrailer with a declared gross weight of ten thousand pounds or less, if the trailer or semitrailer is not used in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise and the applicant certifies on the application that the vehicle will not be maintained and operated in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise.
C. The following motor vehicles, trailers and semitrailers are exempt from the gross weight fee prescribed in section 28-5433:
1. A motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer that is owned and operated by a religious institution and that is used exclusively for the transportation of property produced and distributed for charitable purposes without compensation. For the purposes of this paragraph, "religious institution" means a recognized organization that has an established place of meeting for religious worship and that holds regular meetings for that purpose at least once each week in at least five cities or towns in this state.
2. A motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer that is owned and operated by a nonprofit school that is recognized as being tax exempt by the federal or state government if the motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer is used exclusively for any of the following:
(a) The transportation of pupils in connection with the school curriculum.
(b) The training of pupils.
(c) The transportation of property for charitable purposes without compensation.
3. A motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer that is owned by a nonprofit organization in this state that presents to the department a form approved by the director of the division of emergency management pursuant to section 26-318.
4. A vehicle that is owned and operated only for government purposes by a foreign government, a consul or any other official representative of a foreign government, by the United States, by a state or political subdivision of a state or by an Indian tribal government.
5. A motor vehicle that is privately owned and operated exclusively as a school bus pursuant to a contract with a school district. If a privately owned and operated school bus is temporarily operated for purposes other than those prescribed in the definition of school bus in section 28-101, the registering officer shall assess and collect a monthly gross weight fee equal to one-tenth of the annual gross weight fee prescribed by section 28-5433 for each calendar month that the motor vehicle is so operated in this state. The registering officer shall not apportion the gross weight fee for a fraction of a calendar month.
Just give up! This law is dealing with weight fees and not the fuel use tax. It has nothing to do with the discussion.
Maybe if you were not so arrogant, you might learn something. The specific ARS 28-5432.C, as cited above, is indeed the specific statute cited in the consumer warning from the State of Arizona on their pump label posting (found on each and every diesel pump in AZ) and is also the statute cited in their published brochure on this subject. That brochure can be found here: https://www.azdot.gov/docs/mvd-services/arizona-use-fuel-vendors---faqs.pdf?sfvrsn=0 Now just maybe you might learn something if you can read? I would also have you note, that a copy of the pump posting label is included in the brochure, so those like yourself that are not even residents of Arizona can see exactly what is posted and will see that ARS 28-5432 is indeed the correct statute.
Now, if you still feel that you are correct and that the State of Arizona is wrong in citing ARS 28-5432.C as they have in both the pump posting label and their brochure, maybe you need to give them a call and set them straight? Just a thought. Hopefully, I won't need to try and set you straight again.
lbligh wrote:Francesca Knowles wrote:
O.K., I looked. Can't find a second citation, or ANY citation there for a Class A. There is one post from a guy who reports that in his case as an A-er, he was actually REFUNDED the eight cents by the clerk at a station.
I'd add that the whole discussion is posted in the 'Heavy duty trucks" section of that forum, and nearly all posts are from fellas that own those, here referred to as "toters".
Sorry, but the post I referenced was in the other thread on this subject. Also, don't know where I got the Texas idea. Here it is:
Posted: 09/26/14 09:29am Link | Quote | Print | Notify Moderator
There was a post on Escapee's website that said he got a ticket at a truck stop in PHX.
He stated that he went to pump gas and someone came out and said he was at the wrong pump,
He said after pumping some diesel a man came over and gave him a ticket. I told him to call and protest it and not pay it but He has not replyed. He stated he lives in Phx az.
Just noticed that the post was under the category HDT which I think is Heavy duty transport.
* This post was edited 09/26/14 09:42am by fischer *
2005 Southwind 32vs F53 Retired
2006 Jeep Liberty 4x4
Blue ox Tow Bar
The only "victim" so far wrote:
While I was there they also nailed a large 3 axle class A RV.
Francesca Knowles wrote:Rollnhome wrote:
10ponies
19 Sep 2014
Yesterday I was fueling my toterhome at the Quick Trip truck stop on 51 Ave and I-10 in Phoenix. I was at the pumps marked "autos". I went into put down my card and the attendant told me I was at the wrong pump. I told her I am a registered RV. She said OK and off I went and started fueling.
:B
Give it up, Rollnhome- yer obviously the only person here that can actually READ, and I include myself in the illiterate group.
This is really one for the books...the guy didn't lie about what he had. But he DID go on to say that he "saw other RV's pulled over", clearly intending everyone to presume he meant class A's. Nice touch! Especially since it's pretty clear that most would either miss the 'toterhome' part or not understand what one is.
Result:
Lots of indignant letters-to-regulators from Class A owners. Many from out-of-Staters, not exactly the constituency that elected types owe their careers to. And now the regulators are scratching their heads goin' "those things weigh HOW MUCH??? Well, you can betcher life that they ought to pay the uptax that other hyperheavy vehicles are made to pay. We owe that to The Citizens of Arizona, 99% of whom drive vehicles that weigh 10,000 pounds or less and do much less damage to the roads".
Holding my breath waiting to see if some local paper gets ahold of this one. Can't wait for the reaction from John Q. Average Arizonian!
Francesca Knowles wrote:lbligh wrote:Francesca Knowles wrote:Rollnhome wrote:
With a bit more research I find that 10Ponies the gentleman that received the ticket for fueling at the wrong pump was filling his "toterhome". Toterhomes are not registered as Recreational Vehicles in Arizona; Toterhomes are registered as trucks. I was wondering why they had to "go over his paperwork".
Therefore according to AZ he was filling his three axle truck at the light class pump.
Now I ask, can anyone give an example of an RV registered mh being cited at the light class pumps....that is other than I know a guy whose uncles brother met a guy in a bar.
I can't stand it...this whole discussion including and especially the threadtitle that started it all is BASED ON SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!!! That being of course the (now revealed to be fictional) premise that some poor owner of a fifty thousand pound 200k class A was ticketed for refusing to pay an extra eight cents at the pumps.
Well, brace yerselves...when that toterhome fella goes to Court he'll likely be using the argument that if he has to pay, so do three axle diesel Class As. And he's right! Thing is...if he wins that argument and gets off the hook, it seems likely to me that Arizona's response is going to be to simply shut down any such "loophole" in the next legislative session.
This due at least in part to the indignant letters from Class A owners on the subject. Who knew they were so numerous on Arizona's roads?
Congratulations- y'all may have just created a "problem" for yourselves that didn't even exist! :S
I believe if you look, you will see a second person who was cited. I believe he was from Texas.
O.K., I looked. Can't find a second citation, or ANY citation there for a Class A. There is one post from a guy who reports that in his case as an A-er, he was actually REFUNDED the eight cents by the clerk at a station.
I'd add that the whole discussion is posted in the 'Heavy duty trucks" section of that forum, and nearly all posts are from fellas that own those, here referred to as "toters".
lbligh wrote:Francesca Knowles wrote:Rollnhome wrote:
With a bit more research I find that 10Ponies the gentleman that received the ticket for fueling at the wrong pump was filling his "toterhome". Toterhomes are not registered as Recreational Vehicles in Arizona; Toterhomes are registered as trucks. I was wondering why they had to "go over his paperwork".
Therefore according to AZ he was filling his three axle truck at the light class pump.
Now I ask, can anyone give an example of an RV registered mh being cited at the light class pumps....that is other than I know a guy whose uncles brother met a guy in a bar.
I can't stand it...this whole discussion including and especially the threadtitle that started it all is BASED ON SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!!! That being of course the (now revealed to be fictional) premise that some poor owner of a fifty thousand pound 200k class A was ticketed for refusing to pay an extra eight cents at the pumps.
Well, brace yerselves...when that toterhome fella goes to Court he'll likely be using the argument that if he has to pay, so do three axle diesel Class As. And he's right! Thing is...if he wins that argument and gets off the hook, it seems likely to me that Arizona's response is going to be to simply shut down any such "loophole" in the next legislative session.
This due at least in part to the indignant letters from Class A owners on the subject. Who knew they were so numerous on Arizona's roads?
Congratulations- y'all may have just created a "problem" for yourselves that didn't even exist! :S
I believe if you look, you will see a second person who was cited. I believe he was from Texas.
msmith1199 wrote:lbligh wrote:msmith1199 wrote:lbligh wrote:Rollnhome wrote:
What is AZ definition of "Passenger Carrying Vehicle"? If it is not a motorhome then the tax doesn't apply no matter of weight or axles.
A simple Google of passenger carrying vehicle comes up with a commercial bus or motorcoach. However it is AZ definition of passenger carrying vehicle that matters in this case.
My next question is then, why do all other vehicles require a special or commercial drivers license and a motor home does not. All passenger carrying vehicles are commercial...why include this singular vehicle, motorhomes, into this otherwise commercial tax?
I think because MHS are Recreational Vehicles not Passenger Carrying Vehicles they are exempt from this otherwise commercial tax.
OK... then why are not RVs listed along with all the other type of vehicles that are exempt. Arizona has taken the time to list the exempt vehicles on their pump posting and RVs are not on that list. Everyone here wants to "interpret" a law when it appears that Arizona has made it pretty simple by listing those vehicles that are exempt.
Now don't take me wrong, I believe that Arizona is wrong not to have included RVs as noncommercial vehicles like every other state, but it is what it is.
Let me try this one more time. This law lists what vehicles are included. If a motorhome is not a passenger carrying vehicle, which I don't think it is, then it's not included to begin with so there is no reason to exempt a vehicle that isn't included. Most of the exemptions listed are for vehicles that otherwise fit the definition of included vehicles such as church buses, but because of who owns them or how they're used the are exempted.
That's why.
Well my friend, the law indeed specifically includes very specific language as to those vehicles that are INCLUDED AND EXCLUDED. All of the so called experts here cannot explain or wish away the facts. I have listed for everyone's edification below ARS 28-5432C which details all vehicles included and excluded. The specific and detailed explanation by the State of Arizona should answer all questions. As everyone should note, there is NO MENTION OF MOTORHOMES OR RVs. The text from the ARS Statute is as follows:
28-5432. Gross weight fees; application; exceptions
A. This article applies to all of the following:
1. A trailer or semitrailer with a gross weight of ten thousand pounds or less and that is used in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise.
2. A motor vehicle or vehicle combination if the motor vehicle or vehicle combination is designed, used or maintained primarily for the transportation of passengers for compensation or for the transportation of property.
3. A hearse, an ambulance or any other vehicle that is used by a mortician in the conduct of the mortician's business.
4. A commercial motor vehicle as defined in section 28-5201.
B. This article does not apply to:
1. A vehicle commonly referred to as a station wagon or to a vehicle commonly known as and referred to by the manufacturer's rating as a three-quarter ton or less pickup truck or three-quarter ton or less van unless such a vehicle is maintained and operated more than one thousand hours in a vehicle registration year for the transportation of passengers or property in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise. An applicant requesting title or registration of a motor vehicle in the name of a commercial enterprise shall pay the fees imposed by this article unless the applicant certifies on the application that the vehicle will not be maintained and operated in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise.
2. A trailer or semitrailer with a declared gross weight of ten thousand pounds or less, if the trailer or semitrailer is not used in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise and the applicant certifies on the application that the vehicle will not be maintained and operated in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise.
C. The following motor vehicles, trailers and semitrailers are exempt from the gross weight fee prescribed in section 28-5433:
1. A motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer that is owned and operated by a religious institution and that is used exclusively for the transportation of property produced and distributed for charitable purposes without compensation. For the purposes of this paragraph, "religious institution" means a recognized organization that has an established place of meeting for religious worship and that holds regular meetings for that purpose at least once each week in at least five cities or towns in this state.
2. A motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer that is owned and operated by a nonprofit school that is recognized as being tax exempt by the federal or state government if the motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer is used exclusively for any of the following:
(a) The transportation of pupils in connection with the school curriculum.
(b) The training of pupils.
(c) The transportation of property for charitable purposes without compensation.
3. A motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer that is owned by a nonprofit organization in this state that presents to the department a form approved by the director of the division of emergency management pursuant to section 26-318.
4. A vehicle that is owned and operated only for government purposes by a foreign government, a consul or any other official representative of a foreign government, by the United States, by a state or political subdivision of a state or by an Indian tribal government.
5. A motor vehicle that is privately owned and operated exclusively as a school bus pursuant to a contract with a school district. If a privately owned and operated school bus is temporarily operated for purposes other than those prescribed in the definition of school bus in section 28-101, the registering officer shall assess and collect a monthly gross weight fee equal to one-tenth of the annual gross weight fee prescribed by section 28-5433 for each calendar month that the motor vehicle is so operated in this state. The registering officer shall not apportion the gross weight fee for a fraction of a calendar month.
Just give up! This law is dealing with weight fees and not the fuel use tax. It has nothing to do with the discussion.
