Complaint about a dealer

We have a 06 36D Pace Arrow we bought new. Have had a few problems, most we took care of our self. 120 miles to dealer, Can do a lot with that gas money, When can do most your self. When you own these things you need to be handy, and keep up with the small things.

Okay. So you bought a used coach. A repo to boot.
So why are you complaining about the dealer? Yes you have a
significant list. So has the dealer refused to fix those items?
What exactly is your point?

Is it more that you are disappointed with all the items on your punch list? Used RV, Repo RV. There are going to be problems to be shaken out. Patience grasshopper.

My popcorn is getting stale.

Obviously,as you read that you can probably make judgements against me (rightly so) that I wasn't diligent enough during the inspection and to a point I accept that but there were things that we couldn't have known.

Regarding my list most items were serviced and after they had the coach for about a month I received a call that I could come pick it up. The service manager talked to me for about 2 minutes and said they thought they took care of all my concerns and she had a porter get the RV and then excused herself. I inspected what I could then drove home.

I was very frustrated when I took the coach to them but I was feeling much better when I picked it up after they fixed most of my documented issues.

About a week went by and my brother and I visited our elderly parents to help them around the house. While there, 450 miles from home, my wife called me and proceeded to tell me that we received a bill from the RV dealer for $2700. I couldn't believe it.

I sent the following to the owner:

We received two service bills. One for around $2000 and the other around $700. I am very confused by this. The issues corrected are items that should have been completed upon delivery but was not. I sent multiple emails about some of the issues after we had the coach home and you told me to document them and you would take care of them when we returned from our vacation.

I feel that these bills sent to us must be a mistake. Please call me so we can discuss further.

to which he replied:

I will retrieve the bills sometime today and review them with service Monday morning. I will be in touch sometime Monday.

(It was a Friday when I sent the email and he replied on Saturday)

My Brother and I returned home on Sunday.

On Monday I received the following email from the owner:

After review we have decided that there is no balance due from you. In the future when scheduling a service visit remember that things that are not covered by warranty would be at your expense. A lot of things are covered but some are not. we just want everyone to know that the warranty covers a lot, but won’t cover labor time to look for problems that don’t exist. In other words you would have a bill for labor if a problem is not found.

I was quite irritated with that statement as I felt I was getting things fixed that should have been from the delivery and he was saying that I was looking for warranty work!

That was that, and so we decided quietly that we would not do business with them anymore.

Fast forward to this past weekend. We went to a local state park and camped. We had a major issue while leaving. When I left the campsite, I needed to get out and retrieve a small carpet piece from our site. I put the coach in Park where the 'Autopark' light came on. I then pulled the parking brake knob. Then I took my foot off the foot brake and the coach started rolling which scared me a bit. I slammed on the brakes and repeated the process. Took the coach out of Park and back in, saw the Autolight indicator then pulled the parking brake knob, took my foot off the brake and we started rolling. No doubt about it, our Autobrake/Parking brake is out!

I made an appointment to drop the coach off at the local Workhorse Service Center today (Thursday). I reviewed my warranty that came with my coach which was provided by the dealer and realized that the dealer is the warranty agent. That is, they don't have a third party or insurance company administering this warranty...they are doing it all themselves. Now I was worried!

I dropped the coach off at the service center this morning and then came home and got some work done.

This afternoon, I received the following in an email from the RV dealer:

I just wanted to touch base with you about the warranty claim that was submitted by Coffman truck sales. I went over it with the warranty dept. and they will not ok to have a part replaced when that part can almost always be repaired.

So...here we go again!

I replied quickly with:

Can you tell them that please? What are the parts and what is the cost?

After I sent that I figured I'd better just call the service center. I called and they told me that they needed to do a complete park brake assembly and the price for parts, labor and diagnostics is $2970.78.

Meanwhile the RV Dealer sent me the following:

Yes I still have to call them back they just sent over the fax shortly after lunch. Right now what they have submitted for is a complete park brake assembly. Parts, Labor, Diagnostic time, everything came to a total of 2,970.78.

Can you tell me again what happened?

To which I replied:

We were leaving a campground this past Sunday. I backed out of the site and got on the road which was downhill. I needed to get out and pick-up a small rug so I put the coach in park and I saw the autopark light come on. I then pulled the parking brake knob. When I took my foot off the brake, the coach started rolling. I applied the foot brake again and pushed the parking brake knob in and put the coach in gear. Then I repeated the parking steps. I put it in park, saw the autopark light come on, then pulled the parking brake knob. I took my foot off the brake and it started rolling.

Coffmans told me that the Workhorse service manual states to replace the brake assembly. I am totally helpless on this and can only take their word for what they are saying and your word for what you are saying. I do know that Coffmans is well known in the area for their service department.

To which they replied:

Quick question for you. Could you hear the Hydraulic pump turn on when the coach goes into drive?

My answer:

Well...I think so. There is a noise for a few seconds when I put it in gear.



At this point I am very irritated. I am getting the feeling they just don't want to handle this or me!

Earlier in the week I found someone on the forums that is familiar with this Autobrake issue. I contacted him and he put me in contact with Alan from Brazel's in Washington State. I am familiar with them as they have some nice after market solutions and seem to be well known for their service center.

Tonight I received a call from him and we discussed this issue so now I feel much more educated. he explained how it all works and why it needs replacing as my service center is stating. Further he said that there are no rebuild kits. He also said that if a warranty company told him to rebuild and not replace he would tell them to tow it out of his garage. He said he knew of no way to repair as my RV dealer stated.

After speaking to him, I sent an email to Carlisle who is the manufacturer of my brake system and sent the following:

To whom it may concern,
I purchased a used 2006 Fleetwood Pace Arrow which is on a Workhorse W24 Chassis. The autobrake/Parking Brake has failed. The RV has a Carlisle Brake Controller, Workhorse number W8001667 (Carlisle J72). I am being told by an authorized Workhorse Service center that the only fix is to replace the complete park brake assembly. The RV dealer that has self-warrantied the coach is telling me that they may not cover it because the part can be rebuilt/repaired. I spoke to Brazel’s RV in Washington state who specializes in after-market RV products. They also fully service RV’s. They told me that these parts cannot be rebuilt and that Carlisle does not provide rebuild kits. In fact, they said that if a warranty company told them that, he would have them tow the RV out of his shop. Can you please give me clarification on this?


So there you have it folks! This is where I am. Possibly stuck with a true lemon! I would really appreciate your views on this matter and I will update everybody on what happens next. I am just frustrated with this dealer and really needed to share...and vent!

OK folks, here is my long story! Before I actually start I want to preface with the following. I do not wish to name the dealer quite yet until I get some opinions on what I have been dealing with. I have almost always received great advice on this forum and so part of my rant is also to see what others think about this whole situation. Also, I recognize that I made mistakes and will point those out as I tell this story.

So, go pop some popcorn and get a favorite drink and have a seat and enjoy the show!

About 5 years ago, we purchased a 2004 Damon intruder from a dealer that we had a good experience with. We moved from a small TT to a large TT and finally decided to go motorized! When we took delivery on the RV it was a bit overwhelming, but everything went smooth. The only complaint we had after we got it home was that we felt the dealer didn't clean the coach (interior) as well as we would have liked.

This dealer is 90 miles from my house so all other service has been done by a local RV dealer because it was just easier due to the closer proximity. All 'house' items if not serviced by me was serviced by this closer RV dealer. The closer dealer does not sell or service motorized coaches so if it is not 'house' related they won't touch it. Thats ok, because we have a very reputable Workhorse service center just 20 miles from my house so thats where I took it for chassis type work.

OK, so on May 31 of this year, we drove to the dealer where we purchased our Damon from to look at a couple coaches. We spent a day there looking at the few that we wanted to look at and made a decision on the 2006 Fleetwood Pace Arrow that we now have. We signed some of the papers to get things rolling and would be told when the delivery date is. One thing I would like to point out right now is this dealer makes a big deal about making used coaches like new. We pointed out some things that were obvious that needed attention and we were told that it all would be taken care of. In fact, we were told it would all be like new.

This coach was a repo which didn't bother us as our Damon was also a repo. The previous owner took the televisions and dvd player/s out and for some reason took the booth dinette out as well.

We had a trip planned with us leaving on Sunday, June 29. I told them that it would be nice to take delivery on the new coach a couple weeks prior to our trip so we could test her out and do some driveway camping. That way if we found anything we could deal with it prior to our trip. They never committed to a date and in fact the salesman told me that they didn't even bring the coach into the shop until the week of June 9.

Once the coach was in the shop, it seemed like they were really getting her all setup. I was receiving emails almost daily from the salesman with status reports which also included some photos of a really nice table and four matching chairs to fill that booth space.

Finally, the delivery date was set for Thursday, June 19. We drove our Damon over and did the walk-through of our new coach. Now, this is where I know I made mistakes. I missed some items that perhaps I should have found. In retrospect; some I'm not so sure that I would have found many until we got her home...but I accept I should have been more thorough in the inspection.

We spent about three hours going over everything and while we were there, I wanted to learn how to use the leveling jacks. Our damon had hydraulic leveling jacks but they were not automatic. This new setup has automatic leveling and I wanted to test it. WHile the jacks were deploying the driver side (front) jack alarmed and the technicians spent about 15 minutes looking at it as it was stuck in a partially extended position. They turned a little servo wheel and the jack released. They tested it multiple times and it worked the rest of the time.

When we got her home, we didn't have time to do anything with her until the weekend. We started loading our stuff into the bays, kithcen, closet, etc. During the weekend and the following week, we noticed some problems. The first that that was really irritating was once again they did not clean the coach as well as they should have. All visible surfaces were clean but when we raised or lowered the day/night shades, cat hairs flew all over the place. We ended up cleaning the entire interior from front to back and top to bottom!

While spending time in the coach we noticed that the rear AC would squeal upon starting then it would slowly settle in and quiet down. I took the cover off and noticed the fan shaft went through a sealed bearing with no zerk for lube so I sprayed some silicone and that quieted it for about three days.

Now, the front AC had a previous leak that seemed to damage the overhead. This was the biggest concern when we considered buying the coach. It was obvious that a repair was done to the padded celing material where a section was replaced. I took a close look at the roof around that AC and noticed no softness in the roof and figured it was all taken care of. Well after a couple days that AC started dripping inside the coach.

I called the owner of the RV dealership and complained about the cleanliness of the coach and of these problems I saw with the AC
units. He told m eto document what I find, enjoy my trip and when we got back to bring it in.

As the time progressed closer to our departure date, we kept finding things and my frustration was really up there! I sent the following terse message in an email:

The following are the items I will want the service department to look at – Planning on coming on July 10:

1. Front (Zone 1) AC Interior water leak.
2. Rear (Zone 2) AC Squealing when starting.
3. Awning Wind Sensor issue (sensor not detected).
4. Water Heater – Still does not always wanting to start.
5. Missing ‘ring’ on Passenger map light.

To which I received a reply from the owner as follows:

"I will let service know and they will get it handled."

We went on our trip. The water in the front AC was getting worse so we stopped using that one. I climbed up and sprayed some silicone on the rear AC to quiet that thing down and it only lasted one day this time. There were many other things we found as well.

I documented all the issues as we progressed through our trip.

When we returned, the following is the exact list I made and took to the dealer and walked through with the service manager:

1) Front (Zone 1) Air Conditioner Interior Water Leak. Guessing this was the reason the ceiling material was sagging when we first viewed the coach and unusual trim pieces on ceiling. I tried tilting the coach and still it leaked. It also leaked while on the generator and traveling down the road.

2) Rear (Zone 2) Air Conditioner Loud Squeal upon Starting (bad bearing most likely). I tried lubricating with silicone but after a few days the squeal returns. It looks like a sealed bearing so oil will not help.

3) Hot Water Heater intermittent (gas) starts.

4) Missing Ring on Passenger map light.

5) Water dripping from under dash on passenger feet from dash AC. According to Fleetwood, they stated the following: Although there may be some condensation, typically, there should not be that much to cause a problem. You may want to have it checked for a loose hose or connection.

6) Day/Night shade issues caused from missing plastic clip on one side of the shade that prevents the shades from slipping out of their tracks. The following (four windows) are missing that plastic piece/s and needs replacing/adjusting:

a. Dinette Window (This one is damaged…..fabric torn due to this issue)
b. Bedroom Large Window (this one is also torn)
c. Both Hallway Windows
d. Many are missing screws to the wall (lower part of valance)
e. We never had this issue in our Damon but in this coach if you are not careful, (especially when deploying the night shade) and if not done equally on both sides, the shade will slip out of the track and is very difficult to put back in place.

7) Awning Wind Sensor not detected. When the wind detector switch is turned-on the unit beeps continuously indicating that the wind sensor cannot be detected.

8) There are two light bulbs hanging down under the coach near the fuel fill. What are those for?

9) Battery Control Center cover will not stay on. I used Duct tape for now. (located in the first bay near the steps). Incidentally the duct tape may be good enough but just want to see if there is something else that can be done.

10) Outside (Drivers Side) Porch light not working, burned out bulb?

11) Left front tire valve is bent and needs to be replaced.

12) ABS light intermittent on/off (mostly on) throughout our trip. According to the manual it states that the coach needs service.

13) Engine belt squealing.

14) The screen door latch broke and actually locked us out while camping. Luckily, I had the driver’s side door unlocked and was able to enter the coach via that door. I took the screen door latch apart and a small metal piece fell out. I re-assembled the latch and it is still functioning but I wonder if it needs replacing.

15) The refrigerator ‘Check’ light came on several times while traveling and using LP. We would cycle the power, wait about 10 seconds then it would come back on. This was intermittent in that sometimes it would go into check after a few minutes and sometimes after a couple hours.

16) We had some unusual experiences with the Atwood Leveleg system. Once after hitting a slight bump (not major at all) the controller alarmed but did not show any indicator lights then we could hear a leveler seat back in the up position. Another time we hit a more modest bump in the road and I am certain a leveler dropped as there was a significant noise then it stopped. Also, the auto leveling doesn’t seem to always be accurate. I wonder if the system needs some sort of calibration. Also, when we were doing the walk-through (when we picked the coach up from you) the left front leveler got stuck in the down position. Perhaps it has a problem all its own???

17) In the bedroom, when the slide is out, when standing at the end of the bed, to the right on the floor is two places where significant light can be seen coming in. I stuffed a couple paper towels there but was wondering if this can be sealed a little better mostly to keep the bugs out as well as the cooled or heated air in!

18) A glass shelf in the glass case cabinet keeps falling down. The holes that the clips go into seem to be worn. We are using that cabinet for paper and light-weight plastic items such as plastic silverware, paper plates, etc.

Items I had to take care of:
1) Had to replace a part of the fuel fill tube as there was a leak when filling the tank.

2) Cleaned entire interior of coach as the cleaning that was done seemed only to be on the surface. When we deployed the day/night shades there were many cat hairs indicating that the detailed cleaning may not have been thorough enough.

3) Fixed missing sound from font DVD player to bedroom TV. This was a science project and without doing that then the DVD player for the bedroom would have been useless. On a side note, I love that the bedroom TV is Netflix enabled. I was able to use that with my Wifi Hotspot! I will need to adjust the viewing angle though as it needs to be tilted slightly down as it is sometimes difficult to view certain content.

4) Someone used an air gun to tighten the jam nuts on the wheel simulators. I had to take the coach to a local tire shop to have them help me break them loose. At least four of the chrome nuts are damaged.

Misc.
1) There were no door shelves in the freezer. How can we get some?

2) Screen door slider is broken – has a piece missing on one corner. Is there any way to get that replaced?

3) Is there a way to adjust the tension on the door so we may ‘prop’ it open? When we had the door open to the screen doort and on a windy day, the exterior ‘hard’ door would close (from the wind). This is more of a curious question and I have some of my own ideas on what to do for this but wanted to see what the official word is on it.


OK...more to come......

If you have a legitimate complaint about a dealer complain to the dealer's state's Department of motor vehicles (DMV) in Michigan that is the Secretary of State.

But be prepared to document everything.. I have seen dealers padlocked by the state for ripping off customers, myself included. (Which is why I know they were rip off artists), Can not see I was sorry to see that happen. (Can say I waS sorry I ever visited them)

In most states, when you purchase a used vehicle, it is assumed that the vehicle is purchased "as is, no warranty". I think there are a couple of states that give you some time, but once the clock expires, it is then considered "as is, no warranty". Check with your State's Attorney General or Consumer Protection Agency to find out what the law is in your state. Most Rv Dealers will tell you to bring it back and they fix any defects within 30 days, but most of the time it is not written. If it is a new unit, call the factory, tell them the repair is not being done as it should be, and see if they can help you. Since you did not say what the issue is, it is hard for folks to help you out. If you want to rant, go for it.

darsben wrote:
Is the complaint about a sale or a repair. It does make a difference. In the case of a sale the CONTRACT is binding on both of you. However if it is not in the written contract the promises of a salesman/dealership cannot be enforced.
If a repair then a complaint may be in order if the repair is not up to the standard in the area.

So we need to know more.

It MAY be binding but that has not stopped people on here from complaining about what they signed... To the op.... FIRE AWAY !!! I need some good rant reeding tonight..

Is the complaint about a sale or a repair. It does make a difference. In the case of a sale the CONTRACT is binding on both of you. However if it is not in the written contract the promises of a salesman/dealership cannot be enforced.
If a repair then a complaint may be in order if the repair is not up to the standard in the area.

So we need to know more.

A complaint about an RV dealer? Now there's a first :S

There are different rules between used and new but there are rules for used. Most lemon laws do not apply to used vehicles, but there are other consumer protection laws. You are obviously going to be more protected with a new vehicle versus used, but if a dealer was misleading about the condition of a vehicle there are laws to protect that too.