FRED

Pop-Pop C wrote:
I agree don't buy a FRED because it is a diesel.we had a NEWMAR Grandstar. Engine and
Transmission was great, 330 cummins., but they are usually on a gas frame.
No airbags or brakes. If I were to do it all over again I would put air bags on first thing.
I like the concept, but the engineering did not go far enough.

I'm probably not going to buy. I'll bet most on this thread are married. There is always one that won't try to talk (read nag) the other into something they don't want while that other one doesn't have a problem using whatever means to get their way (read nag). My wife doesn't like much about this one and doesn't see it as much of an upgrade to what we have in the HR Vacationer. The Allegro FRED has 3 slides as opposed to our one 18" slide. Ours is 2' longer. And the brakes (without turning on the engine brake button) didn't seem as good as F53 brakes under our HR. The FRED did seem to track better going down the interstate. The one dealbreaker for her was the 18" slide into the awning area. Takes up lounge chair space.

But I digress. I'll wait for the one I'll get nagged into buying.

Fifty4F100 wrote:

Two Jayhawks wrote:

If you can get a good price on it and don't plan on a lot of trips out west it may be fine.

I would not agree with the part about not going out west. My 230HP ISB in a 95 Bounder tamed the Rockies many times.

Is your Bounder a FRED or RED?

1995 Bounder is a pusher.

I agree don't buy a FRED because it is a diesel.we had a NEWMAR Grandstar. Engine and
Transmission was great, 330 cummins., but they are usually on a gas frame.
No airbags or brakes. If I were to do it all over again I would put air bags on first thing.
I like the concept, but the engineering did not go far enough.

Two Jayhawks wrote:

If you can get a good price on it and don't plan on a lot of trips out west it may be fine.

I would not agree with the part about not going out west. My 230HP ISB in a 95 Bounder tamed the Rockies many times.

Is your Bounder a FRED or RED?

If you can get a good price on it and don't plan on a lot of trips out west it may be fine.

I would not agree with the part about not going out west. My 230HP ISB in a 95 Bounder tamed the Rockies many times.

Torque is "force times the lever arm distance". Horsepower is the ability to do a certain amount of work. Peak horsepower is usually developed at the top end of the RPM range, both gas and diesel. Peak torque is developed near the middle range of the RPMs. Large diesel engine 18 wheelers, tractors, develop between 700 and 1100 pound feet of torque at idle during clutch engagement. This is why drivers are careful when starting off from a stop, with a full load. Axles can snap very easily under high torque. The ford V10 is a real performer in a 7,500 pound pickup, and does a fair job in a 26,000 pound MH, but a diesel is made to do this kind of work.

Fifty4F100 wrote:
Again me NOT being an engineer, I have to go with "seat of the pants" measure. It felt like the 6.7 Cummins was going to always outdo my 6.8 Ford. And that was with a much smaller doghouse to get in and around. Now with 2 slides in the living area, we would lose all the pass thru storage we have now. And that's pitiful compared to the storage on REDs. Apples and oranges. And just so you won't think I have the New Car (RV) fever, I'm having many reservations on spending $50k just to have a diesel and 36" of room in the living area. Not to mention losing 2' in length.

Glenn I am not an automotive engineer either, but if you compare apples to apples it is easier to understand. Your profile says you have a 1999 HR. If that is the 6.8 V-10 you are comparing that has about 275 or 310 HP, and your seat of the pants comparison maybe correct. You are looking at a 2007 FRED, compare against the 2007 V-10. What is the hp of the FRED? How much does it weigh? Now compare it to the Ford which has 362 hp, and its weight. What I said in my first post the higher HP to weight ratio will have better performance. To prove this to yourself test drive each and see which one has a faster 40-60 mph time on the flat and that is the one that will have better performance up a hill. I also get lost with all the discussions about torque like it is magic somehow and how it gets you up a hill. Daveinet has given you a good technical explanation.

Again me NOT being an engineer, I have to go with "seat of the pants" measure. It felt like the 6.7 Cummins was going to always outdo my 6.8 Ford. And that was with a much smaller doghouse to get in and around. Now with 2 slides in the living area, we would lose all the pass thru storage we have now. And that's pitiful compared to the storage on REDs. Apples and oranges. And just so you won't think I have the New Car (RV) fever, I'm having many reservations on spending $50k just to have a diesel and 36" of room in the living area. Not to mention losing 2' in length.

While it may seem on the surfaces, that getting stuff going from a dead stop requires greater low RPM torque, as it turns out, the differential ratios are about double in a gasser than they are in a diesel. That means the torque from the gas engine is also doubled as well. So either coach will have the same drive wheel torque from a dead stop. Technically, you don't care about measuring the torque at the engine, you want to measure the torque at the drive wheels. If you mathematically calculate the torque at the drive wheels, you will find that engines of similar HP will apply the same torque to the drive wheels, regardless of the rated engine torque.
The important thing to remember is that gear ratios multiply torque. IF you have 2 engines with the same torque rating, but one is running twice as fast as the other one, the one that is running twice as fast will have to be geared down for the same output RPM. As soon as you gear it down, the torque is doubled.

"I would be curious what makes some torque usable, and other torque not usable."

I will be woefully inadequate in fully responding (i.e. let the engineers have at it) but in our application, we want to get all our "stuff" going from a stop. Most any diesel will have much more torque at a lower RPM than a gas engine, thus usable. The V10 gas engine has plenty of torque, but higher in the RPM range. Mostly a function of the fuel. If you aren't in a hurry, the Ford V10 will be fine, albeit with less MPGs.

Of course with the diesels getting better MPGs, I'm sure that will get evened out at the next oil change - 7 qts (gas) as opposed to 15 qts (diesel) and a $25+ filter. Apples and oranges!