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karldavidson's avatar
karldavidson
Explorer
May 22, 2013

Wandering Nightmare

I just bought a Four Winds Citation 2006 with 12,000 miles on it. My first venture was a nightmare because it was virtually impossible to keep the RV on the road.

I have added the Safe-T-Plus and stabilizer bars on the rear, but neither has helped to a great degree. Had the alignment checked and it is okay.

My question is: Could it be that the Four Winds Citation - 26BE's wheelbase length is the culprit?

Example: The wheelbase on my rig is 171" and the total length is 27'4". The wheelbase of a shorter rig... the 24BB is 197" with a length of 26'5".

It appears that the steering problem is due to too much weight and length past the rear axle. This makes the front end too light, and therefore it wanders all over the road. Help Please... Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated.
Class C

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  • moose888's avatar
    moose888
    Explorer
    Sep 14, 2013
    Sorry but Sell It . Time to get something that's not going to spoil your fun. If I had to worry about how to load it or buy all kinds of suspension gear I would start over. Sorry but the manufacture should have never sold a RV that was not safe on the road. When you put your family in any car,truck or RV it should be safe. I can't count the times Iv seen TT swaying all over the road because they didn't have them set up right . You are carrying your family ,gas ,propane and gear and if you can't get the RV to stay straight on the road unload it. Traveling in a RV is suppose to be fun not so worrisome that when you get to where you are going you are tied in a knot.
  • Mich_F's avatar
    Mich_F
    Explorer
    Sep 13, 2013
    On my second trip with my Itasca, I thought I had a handling problem. The MH kept pulling to the right while driving down to the Fl. Keys. I got down there, looked in my manual which stated the MH might need a wheel alignment if there are handling problems. I drove home a few days later and on that trip and a 1/2 doz or so others since then I haven't had that issue.I later assumed it had to have been the wind that was causing that pulling to the right. I can let go of the wheel and it will track straight (normally).
    I'd suggest that anyone who has handling issues first get a wheel alignment before adding or changing parts. It could/should be a lot cheaper.
  • pnichols's avatar
    pnichols
    Explorer II
    Sep 12, 2013
    karldavidson wrote:
    My question is: Could it be that the Four Winds Citation - 26BE's wheelbase length is the culprit?

    Example: The wheelbase on my rig is 171" and the total length is 27'4". The wheelbase of a shorter rig... the 24BB is 197" with a length of 26'5".


    I doubt that your wheelbase is the issue.

    My E450 24 foot Itasca has only a 158 inch wheelbase and it handles and steers just fine - stock, right from the factory.

    As I'm sure has been covered in this thread's many pages already, the problem most likely could be the portion of your rig's weight on the rear wheels as compared to the portion of your rig's weight on the front wheels, plus maybe -> the front end alignment not being set right so as to deal with the portion of your rig's weight that is winding up on the front wheels.

    Just as a datapoint, my E450 Ford chassis came stock with anti-sway bars on both the front and rear and stock with a front steering stabilizer shock absorber. I'm sure these two features help with handling and I'm not sure that all E450's come with both of these.
  • Harvard's avatar
    Harvard
    Explorer
    Sep 12, 2013
    Q: Would attempting to realign for a +5 or more be worth the time and cost?

    IMO. No it would not be worth the cost. The tech probably had to use up the adjustment range in order to get the CAMBER and not able to get any more CASTER.

    Thanks for getting back to us.

    Is the RH Caster +5.3 or +5.8 ?

    On Edit: I see by the CROSS CASTER (-1.1) the RH is +5.8 degrees.
  • karldavidson's avatar
    karldavidson
    Explorer
    Sep 12, 2013
    I started this post several months ago. The comments and suggestions have been extremely helpful. Thanks!

    This is an update of what I did and the tangible results of each modification.

    1. Adding the Safe-T Plus had virtually no effect on the stability.
    2. Adding the front and rear sway bars also resulted in little or no improvement.
    3. At this point, the only positive results came from realigning the front end.


    Attached is the alignment specs before and after. The question I have relates to the caster on the front left. All the suggestions were for at least a +5. However, the mechanic said he could only get a +4.7. Would attempting to realign for a +5 or more be worth the time and cost?

  • Harvard's avatar
    Harvard
    Explorer
    Jul 16, 2013
    Harvard wrote:
    It looks like the Moog alignment sleeves are identified as Moog-K80109 for the E series with an adjustment range of 0 to 4 degrees but I could not YET find a PDF file to verify. Ralph, if you can ID/scan a cheat sheet on these we would like to know more about them. Thanks.


    I have a copy of the Moog K80109 PDF file, these sleeves are for the Ford "F" series, there is no mention of the Ford "E" series.
  • Harvard's avatar
    Harvard
    Explorer
    Jul 12, 2013
    rbutton wrote:
    I suspect but can not prove it, that on the e450 Ford chassis there is some caster built into it. The adjustable sleeves I used were the +/- 3.5 degree Moog sleeves which in my case got me to the 5.5 degree caster.


    Yes I believe you are corect on that. And, I think that neutral preset caster is about +3 to +3.5 degrees which is the starting point for adjustable sleeves. I say this because I have an alignment report for my 2004 at LH +3.0 and RH +3.5 when my Ingall 594s were adjusted to be caster neutral (0.0).

    On edit, I should add that this starting point would be dependent on the Frame Angle of the vehicle which depends on how the vehicle sits in the saddle kind of thing.
  • rbutton's avatar
    rbutton
    Explorer
    Jul 12, 2013
    I suspect but can not prove it, that on the e450 Ford chassis there is some caster built into it. The adjustable sleeves I used were the +/- 3.5 degree Moog sleeves which in my case got me to the 5.5 degree caster.

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Nightmare","id":"message:531746","revisionNum":1,"repliesCount":114,"author":{"__ref":"User:user:22522"},"depth":0,"hasGivenKudo":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:531746"},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:531746"},"body":"I just bought a Four Winds Citation 2006 with 12,000 miles on it. My first venture was a nightmare because it was virtually impossible to keep the RV on the road.

I have added the Safe-T-Plus and stabilizer bars on the rear, but neither has helped to a great degree. Had the alignment checked and it is okay.

My question is: Could it be that the Four Winds Citation - 26BE's wheelbase length is the culprit?

Example: The wheelbase on my rig is 171\" and the total length is 27'4\". The wheelbase of a shorter rig... the 24BB is 197\" with a length of 26'5\".

It appears that the steering problem is due to too much weight and length past the rear axle. This makes the front end too light, and therefore it wanders all over the road. Help Please... Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated.","body@stringLength":"837","rawBody":"I just bought a Four Winds Citation 2006 with 12,000 miles on it. My first venture was a nightmare because it was virtually impossible to keep the RV on the road.

I have added the Safe-T-Plus and stabilizer bars on the rear, but neither has helped to a great degree. Had the alignment checked and it is okay.

My question is: Could it be that the Four Winds Citation - 26BE's wheelbase length is the culprit?

Example: The wheelbase on my rig is 171\" and the total length is 27'4\". The wheelbase of a shorter rig... the 24BB is 197\" with a length of 26'5\".

It appears that the steering problem is due to too much weight and length past the rear axle. This makes the front end too light, and therefore it wanders all over the road. Help Please... Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated.","kudosSumWeight":0,"postTime":"2013-05-21T17:35:55.000-07:00","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"tags":{"__typename":"TagConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[{"__typename":"TagEdge","cursor":"MjUuM3wyLjF8b3wxMHxfTlZffDE","node":{"__typename":"Tag","id":"tag:Class C","text":"Class C","time":"2002-02-25T19:07:57.000-08:00","lastActivityTime":null,"messagesCount":null,"followersCount":null}}]},"timeToRead":1,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:531746_1"},"latestVersion":null,"metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":38748},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","canonicalUrl":null,"seoTitle":null,"seoDescription":null,"isEscalated":null,"placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}},"archivalData":null,"searchSnippet":"I just bought a Four Winds Citation 2006 with 12,000 miles on it. My first venture was a nightmare because it was virtually impossible to keep the RV on the road. I have added the Safe-T-Plus 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*/\n}\n\n.container {\n margin-left: auto;\n margin-right: auto;\n max-width: 1170px;\n padding-left: $bootstrap-padding;\n padding-right: $bootstrap-padding;\n}\n\n.row {\n /* HOTFIX - PSDS-32115 - Remove negative margins to fix mobile display */\n\n &::after {\n clear: both;\n }\n\n &::after,\n &::before {\n content: ' ';\n display: table;\n }\n}\n\n.col {\n float: left;\n min-height: 1px;\n padding-left: $bootstrap-padding;\n padding-right: $bootstrap-padding;\n position: relative;\n}\n\n.col-xs-10,\n.col-sm-10 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n}\n\n.col-xs-12,\n.col-sm-4,\n.col-sm-12,\n.col-md-2,\n.col-md-8,\n.col-md-10,\n.col-md-12,\n.col-lg-2,\n.col-lg-8,\n.col-lg-12 {\n width: 100%;\n}\n\n@media screen and (min-width: 767px) {\n .col-md-2 {\n width: 16.66666667%;\n }\n\n .col-md-8 {\n width: 66.66666667%;\n }\n\n .col-md-10 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n }\n\n .col-md-12 {\n width: 100%;\n }\n}\n\n@media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n .col-lg-2 {\n width: 16.66666667%;\n }\n\n .col-lg-4 {\n /* faking it; should be 33.33333333% */\n width: 25%;\n }\n\n .col-lg-8 {\n /* faking it; should be 66.66666667% */\n width: 75%;\n }\n\n .col-lg-10 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n }\n\n .col-lg-12 {\n width: 100%;\n }\n}\n\n.pull-left {\n float: left;\n width: 100%;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 767px) {\n float: none;\n width: auto;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n float: left;\n }\n}\n\n.pad-bottom-20 {\n padding-bottom: $theme-space-base;\n}\n\n.pad-top-20 {\n padding-top: $theme-space-base;\n}\n\n.pad-top-30 {\n padding-top: calc($bootstrap-padding * 2);\n}\n\n.pad-top-40 {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-top: $theme-space-large;\n }\n}\n\n.margin-left-20 {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-left: $theme-space-base;\n }\n}\n\n.margin-top-20 {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-top: $theme-space-base;\n }\n}\n\n.text-center {\n text-align: center;\n}\n\n.text-right {\n text-align: right;\n}\n\n.text-smaller,\n.text-small {\n font-size: $theme-type-size-xsmall;\n}\n\n.text-large {\n font-size: $theme-type-size-xlarge;\n}\n\n.footer-contact {\n p {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: row;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n .text-small {\n @media screen and (max-width: 991px) {\n font-size: $theme-type-size-base;\n }\n }\n }\n\n .icon-gs-app {\n margin-right: $theme-space-base;\n max-width: 38px;\n padding-right: 2px;\n padding-top: 2px;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-left: 140px;\n margin-right: 0;\n }\n }\n\n .gsi-icon-phone {\n margin-bottom: -2px;\n margin-right: $theme-space-small;\n max-height: 20px;\n width: 20px;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-right: 0;\n }\n }\n}\n\n.footer-link {\n a,\n button {\n color: $goodsam-gray-footer;\n padding: 0 12px 0 $theme-space-small;\n }\n\n li:last-child a {\n padding-right: 0;\n }\n}\n\n.footer-top-links {\n padding-left: 0;\n list-style: none;\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: row;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n flex-wrap: wrap;\n margin-bottom: $theme-space-small;\n font-size: 16px;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 480px) {\n flex-direction: column;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n li {\n margin-bottom: $theme-space-base;\n padding: 0 $theme-space-base;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding: 0;\n }\n }\n}\n\n.footer-top {\n border-bottom: 2px solid $goodsam-gray-400;\n display: block;\n margin: auto;\n padding-top: $theme-space-small;\n text-align: center;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n text-align: left;\n }\n\n .footer-logo {\n max-height: 60px;\n max-width: 140px;\n padding: $theme-space-small;\n padding-left: 0;\n padding-top: 0;\n }\n\n .footer-list {\n display: flex;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n list-style: none;\n margin-bottom: 0;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n float: right;\n }\n\n li {\n display: inline-block;\n padding: $theme-space-small $theme-space-xsmall;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n border-right: 1px solid $goodsam-gray-700;\n float: left;\n padding: 0;\n\n &:last-child {\n border-right: 0;\n }\n }\n\n a,\n button {\n font-size: $theme-type-size-xsmall;\n text-transform: uppercase;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 768px) {\n display: block;\n padding: $theme-space-small;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n font-size: $theme-type-size-small;\n }\n }\n\n .dropup {\n background-clip: padding-box;\n border: none;\n font-size: $theme-type-size-small;\n list-style: none;\n padding-left: 5px;\n position: relative;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n float: left;\n }\n\n &:hover {\n .dropdown-menu {\n display: block;\n }\n }\n }\n\n .footer-dropup-toggle {\n background: none;\n border: 0;\n padding: 0;\n\n .fa-angle-up {\n /* @include li-icon ($fa-var-angle-up, $pseudo: before, $size: $theme-type-size-base, $color: $goodsam-gray-footer);\n padding-left: $theme-space-xsmall;\n padding-right: $theme-space-xsmall; */\n }\n }\n\n .dropdown-menu {\n background-color: #fff;\n border-radius: 4px;\n bottom: 100%;\n margin: 2px 0 0;\n min-width: 160px;\n padding: $theme-space-xsmall 0;\n position: absolute;\n right: 0;\n\n li {\n border-right: 0;\n float: none;\n text-align: left;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 768px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n a {\n color: $goodsam-gray;\n display: block;\n text-transform: none;\n\n &:hover {\n outline: 5px auto -webkit-focus-ring-color;\n outline-offset: -2px;\n }\n }\n }\n }\n }\n }\n}\n\n.footer-terms {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: column;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n padding: $theme-space-small 0;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n padding: 0;\n }\n\n > .row {\n padding-bottom: $theme-space-small;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-bottom: $theme-space-base;\n }\n\n &.footer-terms-order-1 {\n order: 1;\n }\n\n &.footer-terms-order-2 {\n order: 2;\n }\n }\n}\n\n.footer-bottom {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-top: $theme-space-small;\n }\n\n .footer-bottom-list-center {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: row;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n flex-wrap: wrap;\n float: none;\n margin: 0 auto;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n li {\n display: inline;\n padding: 0 $theme-space-base;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n border-right: 1px solid $goodsam-gray-700;\n padding: 0;\n\n &:first-child a {\n padding-left: 0;\n }\n\n &:last-child {\n border-right: 0;\n\n a {\n padding-right: 0;\n }\n }\n }\n\n a {\n display: inline-block;\n font-size: $theme-type-size-small;\n padding: $theme-space-small;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: inline;\n font-size: $theme-type-size-xsmall;\n padding: 0 12px 0 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Assistance","custom.footer.row02.url.06":"https://www.goodsam.com/helping-hand","custom.footer.social.facebook.text":"Facebook","custom.footer.social.facebook.url":"https://www.facebook.com/GoodSam","custom.footer.social.twitter.text":"Twitter","custom.footer.social.twitter.url":"https://twitter.com/GoodSam","custom.footer.social.youtube.text":"YouTube","custom.footer.social.youtube.url":"https://www.youtube.com/user/goodsamrvers","custom.footer.social.instagram.text":"Instagram","custom.footer.social.instagram.url":"https://www.instagram.com/goodsam/?hl=en","custom.footer.social.pinterest.text":"Pinterest","custom.footer.social.pinterest.url":"https://www.pinterest.com/goodsam/","custom-community-footer-copyright.text":"© {0} Good Sam Enterprises, LLC. All rights reserved."},"defaults":{"config":{"applicablePages":[],"description":"","fetchedContent":null,"__typename":"ComponentConfiguration"},"props":[],"__typename":"ComponentProperties"},"components":[{"id":"custom.widget.CustomFooter","form":null,"config":null,"props":[],"__typename":"Component"}],"grouping":"CUSTOM","__typename":"ComponentTemplate"},"properties":{"config":{"applicablePages":[],"description":"","fetchedContent":null,"__typename":"ComponentConfiguration"},"props":[],"__typename":"ComponentProperties"},"form":null,"__typename":"Component","localOverride":false},"globalCss":{"css":".custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-wrapper_hp49n_21 {\n background: #474442;\n\n a {\n color: #dfdfdf;\n font-weight: 100;\n\n &:focus,\n &:hover {\n color: #dfdfdf;\n }\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_sr-only_hp49n_34 {\n position: absolute;\n width: 0.0625rem;\n height: 0.0625rem;\n margin: -0.0625rem;\n padding: 0;\n overflow: hidden;\n clip: rect(0, 0, 0, 0);\n border: 0;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer_hp49n_21 {\n line-height: 1.25rem;\n /* margin-left: auto;\n\tmargin-right: auto;\n\tpadding-left: $bootstrap-padding;\n\tpadding-right: $bootstrap-padding; */\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_container_hp49n_52 {\n margin-left: auto;\n margin-right: auto;\n max-width: 73.125rem;\n padding-left: 0.9375rem;\n padding-right: 0.9375rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_row_hp49n_60 {\n /* HOTFIX - PSDS-32115 - Remove negative margins to fix mobile display */\n\n &::after {\n clear: both;\n }\n\n &::after,\n &::before {\n content: ' ';\n display: table;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col_hp49n_74 {\n float: left;\n min-height: 0.0625rem;\n padding-left: 0.9375rem;\n padding-right: 0.9375rem;\n position: relative;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-xs-10_hp49n_82,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-sm-10_hp49n_83 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-xs-12_hp49n_87,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-sm-4_hp49n_88,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-sm-12_hp49n_89,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-2_hp49n_90,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-8_hp49n_91,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-10_hp49n_92,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-12_hp49n_93,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-2_hp49n_94,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-8_hp49n_95,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-12_hp49n_96 {\n width: 100%;\n}\n@media screen and (min-width: 767px) {\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-2_hp49n_90 {\n width: 16.66666667%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-8_hp49n_91 {\n width: 66.66666667%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-10_hp49n_92 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-12_hp49n_93 {\n width: 100%;\n }\n}\n@media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-2_hp49n_94 {\n width: 16.66666667%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-4_hp49n_123 {\n /* faking it; should be 33.33333333% */\n width: 25%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-8_hp49n_95 {\n /* faking it; should be 66.66666667% */\n width: 75%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-10_hp49n_133 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-12_hp49n_96 {\n width: 100%;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pull-left_hp49n_142 {\n float: left;\n width: 100%;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 767px) {\n float: none;\n width: auto;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n float: left;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-bottom-20_hp49n_156 {\n padding-bottom: 1.25rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-top-20_hp49n_160 {\n padding-top: 1.25rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-top-30_hp49n_164 {\n padding-top: calc(0.9375rem * 2);\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-top-40_hp49n_168 {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-top: 2.5rem;\n 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.custom_widget_CustomFooter_icon-gs-app_hp49n_221 {\n margin-right: 1.25rem;\n max-width: 2.375rem;\n padding-right: 0.125rem;\n padding-top: 0.125rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-left: 8.75rem;\n margin-right: 0;\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_gsi-icon-phone_hp49n_233 {\n margin-bottom: -0.125rem;\n margin-right: 0.625rem;\n max-height: 1.25rem;\n width: 1.25rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-right: 0;\n }\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-link_hp49n_245 {\n a,\n button {\n color: #dfdfdf;\n padding: 0 0.75rem 0 0.625rem;\n }\n\n li:last-child a {\n padding-right: 0;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-top-links_hp49n_257 {\n padding-left: 0;\n list-style: none;\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: row;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n flex-wrap: wrap;\n margin-bottom: 0.625rem;\n font-size: 1rem;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 480px) {\n flex-direction: column;\n }\n\n @media screen and 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Wandering Nightmare","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:531860"},"body":"Sorry but Sell It . Time to get something that's not going to spoil your fun. If I had to worry about how to load it or buy all kinds of suspension gear I would start over. Sorry but the manufacture should have never sold a RV that was not safe on the road. When you put your family in any car,truck or RV it should be safe. I can't count the times Iv seen TT swaying all over the road because they didn't have them set up right . You are carrying your family ,gas ,propane and gear and if you can't get the RV to stay straight on the road unload it. Traveling in a RV is suppose to be fun not so worrisome that when you get to where you are going you are tied in a knot.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2013-09-14T05:45:19.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2013-09-14T05:45:19.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":693},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:531746/message:531860","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"User:user:858":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:858","uid":858,"login":"Mich_F","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2004-04-18T17:11:02.000-07:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://community.goodsam.com/t5/s/feyqc97479/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-2.svg?time=1737155183000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:42"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:feyqc97479/user:858"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:531859":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:531859","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:531859":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:858"},"id":"message:531859","revisionNum":1,"uid":531859,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:531746"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:531746"},"subject":"Re: Wandering Nightmare","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:531859"},"body":"On my second trip with my Itasca, I thought I had a handling problem. The MH kept pulling to the right while driving down to the Fl. Keys. I got down there, looked in my manual which stated the MH might need a wheel alignment if there are handling problems. I drove home a few days later and on that trip and a 1/2 doz or so others since then I haven't had that issue.I later assumed it had to have been the wind that was causing that pulling to the right. I can let go of the wheel and it will track straight (normally).
I'd suggest that anyone who has handling issues first get a wheel alignment before adding or changing parts. It could/should be a lot cheaper.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2013-09-13T07:26:32.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2013-09-13T07:26:32.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":693},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:531746/message:531859","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"ModerationData:moderation_data:531858":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:531858","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:531858":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:22522"},"id":"message:531858","revisionNum":1,"uid":531858,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:531746"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:531746"},"subject":"Re: Wandering Nightmare","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:531858"},"body":"The RH Caster is +5.8","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"21","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2013-09-13T06:21:37.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2013-09-13T06:21:37.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":696},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:531746/message:531858","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"Rank:rank:41":{"__typename":"Rank","id":"rank:41","position":33,"name":"Explorer II","color":"333333","icon":null,"rankStyle":"TEXT"},"User:user:730":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:730","uid":730,"login":"pnichols","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2005-04-26T06:29:00.000-07:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://community.goodsam.com/t5/s/feyqc97479/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-6.svg?time=1737155183000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:41"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:feyqc97479/user:730"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:531857":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:531857","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:531857":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:730"},"id":"message:531857","revisionNum":1,"uid":531857,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:531746"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:531746"},"subject":"Re: Wandering Nightmare","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:531857"},"body":"
karldavidson wrote:
My question is: Could it be that the Four Winds Citation - 26BE's wheelbase length is the culprit?

Example: The wheelbase on my rig is 171\" and the total length is 27'4\". The wheelbase of a shorter rig... the 24BB is 197\" with a length of 26'5\".


I doubt that your wheelbase is the issue.

My E450 24 foot Itasca has only a 158 inch wheelbase and it handles and steers just fine - stock, right from the factory.

As I'm sure has been covered in this thread's many pages already, the problem most likely could be the portion of your rig's weight on the rear wheels as compared to the portion of your rig's weight on the front wheels, plus maybe -> the front end alignment not being set right so as to deal with the portion of your rig's weight that is winding up on the front wheels.

Just as a datapoint, my E450 Ford chassis came stock with anti-sway bars on both the front and rear and stock with a front steering stabilizer shock absorber. I'm sure these two features help with handling and I'm not sure that all E450's come with both of these.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2013-09-12T15:55:34.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2013-09-12T15:55:34.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":687},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:531746/message:531857","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"User:user:305896":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:305896","uid":305896,"login":"wolfe10","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2000-10-08T19:25:44.000-07:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://community.goodsam.com/t5/s/feyqc97479/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-12.svg?time=1737155183000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:42"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:feyqc97479/user:305896"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:531856":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:531856","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:531856":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:305896"},"id":"message:531856","revisionNum":1,"uid":531856,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:531746"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:531746"},"subject":"Re: Wandering Nightmare","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:531856"},"body":"Karl,

What chassis?","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"22","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2013-09-12T14:56:24.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2013-09-12T14:56:24.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":694},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:531746/message:531856","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"User:user:46784":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:46784","uid":46784,"login":"Harvard","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2005-12-24T08:08:16.000-08:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://community.goodsam.com/t5/s/feyqc97479/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-12.svg?time=1737155183000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:42"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:feyqc97479/user:46784"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:531855":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:531855","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:531855":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:46784"},"id":"message:531855","revisionNum":1,"uid":531855,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:531746"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:531746"},"subject":"Re: Wandering Nightmare","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:531855"},"body":"Q: Would attempting to realign for a +5 or more be worth the time and cost?

IMO. No it would not be worth the cost. The tech probably had to use up the adjustment range in order to get the CAMBER and not able to get any more CASTER.

Thanks for getting back to us.

Is the RH Caster +5.3 or +5.8 ?

On Edit: I see by the CROSS CASTER (-1.1) the RH is +5.8 degrees.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2013-09-12T14:38:25.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2013-09-12T14:38:25.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":693},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:531746/message:531855","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"ModerationData:moderation_data:531854":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:531854","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:531854":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:22522"},"id":"message:531854","revisionNum":1,"uid":531854,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:531746"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:531746"},"subject":"Re: Wandering Nightmare","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:531854"},"body":"I started this post several months ago. The comments and suggestions have been extremely helpful. Thanks!

This is an update of what I did and the tangible results of each modification.

  1. Adding the Safe-T Plus had virtually no effect on the stability.
  2. Adding the front and rear sway bars also resulted in little or no improvement.
  3. At this point, the only positive results came from realigning the front end.


Attached is the alignment specs before and after. The question I have relates to the caster on the front left. All the suggestions were for at least a +5. However, the mechanic said he could only get a +4.7. Would attempting to realign for a +5 or more be worth the time and cost?

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Harvard wrote:
It looks like the Moog alignment sleeves are identified as Moog-K80109 for the E series with an adjustment range of 0 to 4 degrees but I could not YET find a PDF file to verify. Ralph, if you can ID/scan a cheat sheet on these we would like to know more about them. Thanks.


I have a copy of the Moog K80109 PDF file, these sleeves are for the Ford \"F\" series, there is no mention of the Ford \"E\" series.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2013-07-16T14:55:06.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2013-07-16T14:55:06.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":692},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:531746/message:531853","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"ModerationData:moderation_data:531852":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:531852","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:531852":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:46784"},"id":"message:531852","revisionNum":1,"uid":531852,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:531746"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:531746"},"subject":"Re: Wandering Nightmare","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:531852"},"body":"
rbutton wrote:
I suspect but can not prove it, that on the e450 Ford chassis there is some caster built into it. The adjustable sleeves I used were the +/- 3.5 degree Moog sleeves which in my case got me to the 5.5 degree caster.


Yes I believe you are corect on that. And, I think that neutral preset caster is about +3 to +3.5 degrees which is the starting point for adjustable sleeves. I say this because I have an alignment report for my 2004 at LH +3.0 and RH +3.5 when my Ingall 594s were adjusted to be caster neutral (0.0).

On edit, I should add that this starting point would be dependent on the Frame Angle of the vehicle which depends on how the vehicle sits in the saddle kind of thing.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2013-07-12T06:32:27.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2013-07-12T06:32:27.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":690},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:531746/message:531852","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"User:user:165569":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:165569","uid":165569,"login":"rbutton","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2012-10-28T17:42:07.000-07:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://community.goodsam.com/t5/s/feyqc97479/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-10.svg?time=1737155183000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:42"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:feyqc97479/user:165569"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:531851":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:531851","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:531851":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:165569"},"id":"message:531851","revisionNum":1,"uid":531851,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:531746"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:531746"},"subject":"Re: Wandering Nightmare","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:531851"},"body":"I suspect but can not prove it, that on the e450 Ford chassis there is some caster built into it. 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