Blue Buffalo. or Taste of Wild? update on Bud

Thanks, Dr Doug and Mark, for explaining the heartworm preventatives "family" so well :-)

colliehauler wrote:
Could this be a accumulation that may be triggering the seizures?

NO!! I really doubt the dosing of an avermectin at the preventive dose has anything to do with his seizures. The ivermectin is cleared within several days of dosing. Even allowing for slower metabolism by sensitive individuals, it should be totally gone way before the next dose.

Plumb's wrote:
Dogs: Bioavailability = 0.95; volume of distribution = 2.4 L/kg; elimination half-life = 2 days.

BCSnob wrote:

rockhillmanor wrote:
IMHO knowing the facts that the ingredient Milbemycin oxim 'causes' seizures in collies I would NOT give him any more of that Sentinel product.

The active ingredient in all heartworm "preventatives" can cause toxicosis in dogs that are "affected" with MDR1-1delta at lower doses than "normal" dogs. When I say all I mean: ivermectin (HeartGard), milbemycin oxime (Interceptor and Sentinel), moxidectin (Proheart), selamectin (Revolution), and doramectin (Decomax). All of these drugs (all are avermectins) have the same mode of action and interact with the P-glycoprotein blood-brain transport mechanism in the same way. That does not leave any heartworm preventative for use if as is implied one of avermectins is triggering seizures in a seizure prone dog at the heartworm preventative dose.

The other problem with this logic is that "milbemycin oxime 'causes' seizures in collies" is not the same thing as triggering seizures in seizure prone dogs; neurotoxicosis is different than general seizures.

So what do you recommend I give Bud for heart worm prevention?

When I first got Bud he was heart worm positive. Bud went through the treatment and has been on preventive since, except the cold winter month's. Could this be a accumulation that may be triggering the seizures?

rockhillmanor wrote:
IMHO knowing the facts that the ingredient Milbemycin oxim 'causes' seizures in collies I would NOT give him any more of that Sentinel product.

The active ingredient in all heartworm "preventatives" can cause toxicosis in dogs that are "affected" with MDR1-1delta at lower doses than "normal" dogs. When I say all I mean: ivermectin (HeartGard), milbemycin oxime (Interceptor and Sentinel), moxidectin (Proheart), selamectin (Revolution), and doramectin (Decomax). All of these drugs (all are avermectins) have the same mode of action and interact with the P-glycoprotein blood-brain transport mechanism in the same way. That does not leave any heartworm preventative for use if as is implied one of avermectins is triggering seizures in a seizure prone dog at the heartworm preventative dose.

The other problem with this logic is that "milbemycin oxime 'causes' seizures in collies" is not the same thing as triggering seizures in seizure prone dogs; neurotoxicosis is different than general seizures.

The phenobarbital can definitely make them wobbly. Wise of your vet to back it off a bit. You will eventually find that "happy" spot where the drug controls the seizures without causing too many side effects. There are other drugs available but my vet always said that pheno was the oldest med and used for humans as well. He liked it because we know the side effects and what to expect.

Glad Bud is doing better. No seizures is definitely better. My Neal was having a really bad seizure when he was outside at a campground. I, of course, was observing and keeping him away from anything that would harm him. Someone came rushing up to me and told me I needed to get him to a vet and have him put down right away. I said he was having a seizure. He had just had surgery for swallowing rocks and his pheno level got compromised with the vomiting, etc. The next day I saw the same person and introduced him to my now "normal" dog. He was glad to know he was okay.

Oh another thing. Neal developed "pica" which is the habit of eating inanimate objects. He would eat rocks, dirt, anything that was on the floor, etc. He had two surgeries to remove rocks. One of the surgeries revealed a pill blister tab (like what pills are on) stuck in his intestine. Fortunately they found that because that actually was more problematic than the rocks that time. You will just have to watch Bud closely and see that he doesn't do that. They don't all do it, but Neal did and when he eventually went off his meds, he stopped it.

Dale

Dale

colliehauler wrote:
...Bud has not had anymore seizures so far but is having a balance problem when standing still. As long as he is walking it does not seem to be an issue. I talked to the vet and he cut the dose of Phenobarb in half for a few days to give him a chance to adjust.....

We will have a freeze before long and I will discontinue the heart worm prevention until next spring and go with a different brand for Bud. None of this will do any good if it turns out to be a brain tumor but at least I will have done all I can do.

Sounds like your vet is on top of things. Too much phenobarb makes them loose their balance. The goal is to have them on the 'lowest dosage' as possible with no break thru's of seizures.

There IS one more thing you can do!
IMHO knowing the facts that the ingredient Milbemycin oxim 'causes' seizures in collies I would NOT give him any more of that Sentinel product.

Ask your vet for another heart worm med that does not have the 'Milbemycin oxim' ingredient in it to finish up the year. There are many that do not have that ingredient in it.

If it were me I would wait a month or so after you stop heartworm meds and ask your vet to wean him off the phenobarb to see if the seizures come back. If they don't then you know it was the heartworm med and not a medical issue.

I don't know what the half life of the Milbemycin oxim ingredient in the Sentinel heartworm that causes the seizures is. You'd need to know that to know when it would be entirely out of his system before you try the test without the phenobarb.

I'd rather see my dog have one more seizure during that test period to prove he 'needed' to be on the phenobarb then give that drug for the rest of his life unnecessarily. When all you have to do is change heartworm meds. Just a thought.

Glad he's feeling better. Again I know how awful it feels to watch them during a seizure, I feel for you. Hope everything works out well for you and Bud.:C

colliehauler wrote:
Bud does not eat very much and I wanted what he did eat to count, not a lot of fillers. I did not change what I feed the other two Collies.

Just wanted to chime in on this. I've fed Diamond Naturals, then switched to Taste of the Wild and had very good results with both. My own paranoia over their ingredient sources and the company's (voluntary) recalls got me looking for something else.
I now feed "Earthborn" Holistic, and couldn't be happier. More nutrition, far less filler. In fact, my 75 lb boy maintains his weight on only two cups of kibble per day - about half the bulk of his previous kibble. As a bonus, clean up is minimal (concentrated food = concentrated poops ;))
As for my vets, one recommends the high-dollar food sold in their clinic, and the other thinks all dog food talk is hype and recommends Purina or any other name that's been around since the dawn of time. I looked at the Dog Food Advisor website, I read a lot of labels (ingredients as well as kcal/cup) and I tried a few brands to see what worked best. Earthborn it is. It's a bit pricey, but since I feed less I don't believe it's any costlier in the long run. And personally, I wouldn't care anyway. It works for my dog, it works for my daughters' dogs who have a hard time keeping weight on. It's definitely worth checking out if it's available in your area.

To answer some question. Bud would pick the wet food out of the dry Pedigree so switching was not much of a issue. (Why change food) Bud does not eat very much and I wanted what he did eat to count, not a lot of fillers. I did not change what I feed the other two Collies.

Bud has not had anymore seizures so far but is having a balance problem when standing still. As long as he is walking it does not seem to be an issue. I talked to the vet and he cut the dose of Phenobarb in half for a few days to give him a chance to adjust. Bud even wanted to play with Mikko a little last night. Bud did knock over the water bucket and flooded the kitchen, nothing a few towels won't clean up.

Yesterday I washed all the dog beds in scent and dye free detergent. We will have a freeze before long and I will discontinue the heart worm prevention until next spring and go with a different brand for Bud. None of this will do any good if it turns out to be a brain tumor but at least I will have done all I can do.

Since your dog is having seizures, I'd pick a kibble that does not contain rosemary. It's in a lot of dog foods, and anecdotal reports suggest that rosemary can possibly lower the threshold in seizure prone dogs. As you probably know, many monthly flea/tick monthly can also do this.

I would pick TOTW any day over BB.

I see Colliehauler bought T of W and Bud apparently likes it :-) Hope that helps!

I fed Blue Buffalo for a while, noticed NO difference in my dogs from the Diamond Naturals I've also fed - then I'm pretty sure they had a recall, or were simply "outed" for not having the quality they advertise??