Help with hitch / tongue weight

odis wrote:
Not to hijack the tread but...I'm the guy with the razor in the truck bed.
If my WDH was set up before I had the razor ( I hauled 2 dirt bikes before in bed of truck) with my camper in tow. Will it still be set up adding the razor to the bed? The truck does not squat with the 1150 extra #'s.i have not hooked the camper up yet.
Also if I go to a cat scale will they tell me axle weights?
Thanks
Jim

Cat scale will tell axle weights, as long as each axle is on it's own scale.

If I understand it all, the WDH hitch will still be distributing the weight it was distributing BEFORE you put the razor in the bed. That part would be unchanged. The question (or debate), is whether or not the razor is adding weight that actually needs to be distributed. I understand you saying it does not squat with the razor added, but there is/will be increased weight on the rear axle (obviously). Not knowing your RGAWR, I would be concerned/want to make sure I didn't exceed that RGAWR with the combination of the razor and the WD hitch setup as you have it now.

Understand the razor may not make it squat now, but the combination of the razor, and the tongue weight from your trailer might.

If you subscribe to the theory that weight behind the rear axle has to be distributed (which Im not necessarily in that camp), then you would also have to figure out a way to determine how much of that razor weight is behind the axle. Don't know how you could do that accurately.

I am of the mindset that the tongue weight is the weight placed directly on the hitch, and that is the weight I need to distribute. The remaining weight is cargo weight, that still factors against my GVWR of the truck, but Im not necessarily distributing. BUT, having said that, other than a couple bikes, and a cooler, I don't carry anything in the bed. And anything I do carry is forward of the rear axle.

Mike

lbrjet wrote:
Yep. Makes a lot of sense for Cequent to say 'use the wieght' in determining hitch size (so they can sell you a more expensive hitch) and then say to not distribute the weight with your new super duper hitch. The instructions say there is no need to distribute that weight (which is correct), but yet they want to sell you the more expensive hitch anyway. As I said before, it is just a marketing effort to get more money out of your pocket.

You are still not understanding this and trying to rationalize this as some sort of marketing ploy which I'm not sure any logical explaination will change your opinion and I think that's all it is YOUR OPINION and as far as I can tell pure speculation on your part with no factual basis. This weight added aft of the axle after you have initally set up your WDH is in fact redistributed to both the TT axles and to the front axles of the TV. Maybe not in the same ratios as the trailer only tongue wt. but it is weight that has to be acted upon by the WDH bars and that's why it effects the bar sizing of your WDH system. Of even more concern at least to me is that if it effects the weight sizing of the WDH bars that are based on this hitch weight as it called by CEQUENT then by extension I believe it would increase the "TONGUE WT." capacity limits for WD mode on the TV receiver itself which can only be changed if at all by changing your receiver to a higher rated one.

I'm not sure any amount of facts will change your opinion which I think is basically close minded and impervious to rational reasoning and I'm thru trying in your case which I will put in the "LOST BIN" so to speak. Please don't take this as a personal attack since it's not given as such, but is just how I see your position IN MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION.

Larry

Not to hijack the tread but...I'm the guy with the razor in the truck bed.
If my WDH was set up before I had the razor ( I hauled 2 dirt bikes before in bed of truck) with my camper in tow. Will it still be set up adding the razor to the bed? The truck does not squat with the 1150 extra #'s.i have not hooked the camper up yet.
Also if I go to a cat scale will they tell me axle weights?
Thanks
Jim

Yep. Makes a lot of sense for Cequent to say 'use the wieght' in determining hitch size (so they can sell you a more expensive hitch) and then say to not distribute the weight with your new super duper hitch. The instructions say there is no need to distribute that weight (which is correct), but yet they want to sell you the more expensive hitch anyway. As I said before, it is just a marketing effort to get more money out of your pocket.

If you measure your truck's front ride height empty, then pile a bunch of weight in the back of the bed, hitch up the trailer, and dial in the WD back to empty ride height, THEN the cargo in the bed would be counted as "tongue weight."

This is because you are using the WD bars to compensate for the front end rise caused by both the weight in the extreme rear of the bed AND the tongue weight.

Except, that's not the way you're supposed to do it!!!

You load up the truck FIRST, then measure the front ride height. Hitch up the trailer and dial in the WD bars to bring the truck back to where it was loaded but NOT hitched!

If you do it correctly, the WD bars will not be seeing any more stress if you have nothing in the bed, or if you have 2000lbs of bagged concrete up against the tailgate.

You CAN use the WD bars to distribute some of the weight from the bed, and of course you have to compensate for that with heavier bars. HOWEVER, that is not typical.

Walaby wrote:
Yeah, probably 1/10th of 1 percent was a bit of an exaggeration. Point is though, if people set up with their TV and TT loaded as they intend to camp, it will be covered. If they are so close that adding a cooler in the back after setup makes them worried, time for a new truck.

If my wife had her way, I'd find a truck I could stick a Fiat 500 in the bed... I'd have to accommodate that too.

Mike

But the counter point that I think is even more important is that everyone should at least BE AWARE and I'm an example, the gent with the RAZR might be another and IDoMyOwnStunts apparantly is a third just in this one thread where this issue might need to investigated and some resolution found.

Your thought of having your truck loaded as they intend to camp is fine, but is it real that every single person when they are setting up their WDH has they wife all the kiddos, all the firewood they will EVER TAKE, the bikes not jet bought, and the two generators I mentioned that they will discover they need after that first trip there. While it's sort of the way you read things the information I linked to from CEQUENT I feel is meant to cover situations where one is carrying cargo that was not covered when their WDH was originally setup or they know might vary trip to trip.

I will say that in reality this issue probably won't really effect the vast majority of folks, but the real issue was the mistaken concept that the tongue wt as seen by the WDH system and IMO also the receiver is not just limited to what you might measure the tongue wt. on a Sherline scale, it can be hundred of lbs more in certain cases. THATS THE REAL POINT and what caused all the initial discussion here, not whether the weights were significant or not.

Finally, your comment about the cooler and new truck demonstrates I feel where many are missing the point. This is not about payload, what a truck can carry, etc. It's about buying and sizing the correct WDH system and IMO by extension staying under the tongue wt. limitations of your receiver. These are basically truck independent so the issue is valid on your F-450 just as much as your F-150 except the receiver on the F-450 would hopefully be higher rated than the F-150.

Larry

Yeah, probably 1/10th of 1 percent was a bit of an exaggeration. Point is though, if people set up with their TV and TT loaded as they intend to camp, it will be covered. If they are so close that adding a cooler in the back after setup makes them worried, time for a new truck.

If my wife had her way, I'd find a truck I could stick a Fiat 500 in the bed... I'd have to accommodate that too.

Mike

Walaby wrote:

mkirsch wrote:
Unless you're talking about thousands of pounds in the bed aft of the truck's rear axle, you're splitting hairs here guys.

In Larry's case, it appears he is talking about 1000's of pounds in the back aft of his van. I suspect he is in the 1/10th of 1 percent.

Mike

The person (I forget who) who was thinking of towing with a Rzr in the bed would need to consider it.

mkirsch,

I think you've missed the whole point of all this and it's not about changing your WDH settings or changes in the vehicle attitude with respect to say wheel well clearances, it about properly sizing your WDH system to account for any temporary or transient cargo added aft of the rear axle AFTER YOU HAVE SETUP YOUR WDH SYSTEM. If you read and accept what CEQUENT recommends this cargo added aft of the TV axle is added to the trailer tongue weight w/o any adjustment so if your normal tongue wt is say 1000lbs and you add 200 then your new weight that should be used for WDH system sizing would be 1200lbs which is a 20 percent increase which IMO is not insignificant. Furthermore, it's not about how much this additional wt. might change the actual wheel well heights, it's about sizing your WDH system to effectively counter and redistribute the correct maximum wt. that it is subject to.It's no different than replacing your 6K receiver with a 10K one, it's about capacities and having the correctly installed equip to do the job. IMO adding this "ADDITIONAL CARGO" will by definition have a small effect on the visible attitude of say the TV as it sets and that's as it should be since you are adding it with the WDH already adjusted for a previous loading scenario. I guess one could try and make up situations/numbers/scenarios to try and artifically reduce this effect, but the WHOLE POINT is the concept is still a VALID CONCERN and the position that it has NO EFFECT that was put forth by multiple folks in this thread alone is SIMPLY NOT CORRECT as I feel I have shown, demonstrated and given as clear examples of as I can think of.

IGNORE IT IF YOU WANT, just don't say it's fairy dust or it isn't a valid concept/potential concern for consideration. If it doesn't apply to you, you don't have to do it or even worry about it, but if it does it is and should be a valid consideration just as including that drawbar wt. (less than 100lbs in the majority of cases) in ones TV payload calculations that is universally recommended. One could use the same faulty logic and say it doesn't really matter whether you include the drawbar wt in any calculations since it's weight is minor and won't change anything much. It's either CORRECT or INCORRECT with little to no GREY AREAS concept wise.

I just thought of another case that I have seen on here and that is the folks that carry a pair of EU2000 generators right at the rear of their truck bed at times often in nifty enclosures to use when their trips are to locations where they might need this generator capacity. That example right there is another example of the type of "CARGO ADDED" that could easily be 100lbs or more and would constitute close to a 10 percent increase in WDH capacities for a unadjusted previous tongue wt of say 1000lbs. IMO one has to be careful since just like items loaded in a trailer, one item might not break the bank, but it's the multiple items that all of a sudden become important.


Larry

mkirsch wrote:
Unless you're talking about thousands of pounds in the bed aft of the truck's rear axle, you're splitting hairs here guys.

In Larry's case, it appears he is talking about 1000's of pounds in the back aft of his van. I suspect he is in the 1/10th of 1 percent.

Mike