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Amazing what warped views some folks have. By the way, AlGore invented the internet, not the government. Innovation almost always comes from free enterprise. Look around the internet, there is no government foot print.

vikrv wrote:

LindsayRichards wrote:

...

That's called American innovation, just like fracking. You can down play it all you wish, but private innovation is responsible for most of the world's successes. The TVA hasn't done too much lately.

There is incremental innovation and breakthrough innovation. Smart phones already existed when Apple came out with the first iPhone in 2007. MP3 players already existed, such as the Creative Zen, when Apple came out with the iPod. What Apple has done is to create carefully stylized gadgets that create a cultlike desire in consumers. They also have the ecosystem with the iTunes stores to make it easy for consumers to buy downloadable music and applications.

As far as fracking, the first commercially fracked well occurred in 1949. Directional drilling has occurred since 1934. So no breakthrough innovation there in the Bakken. Just more incremental refinement.

Most American innovation proceeded from large government financed and managed projects. Federal support for Air Mail gave birth to Boeing and Douglas, who wanted to build the airmail planes. United Airlines and others started by selling passenger space on mail planes. Lindbergh was an experienced Air Mail pilot who teamed up with the Ryan aircraft company and their head engineer Donald Hall to customize a Ryan Air Mail plane to fly the atlantic.

Same thing with this here very internet. The net itself was built by government scientists who wanted to exchange data and papers and ideas. The first browser. Mosaic, was defined and built by Berners-Lee at CERN, a government lab in switzerland.

And so it was. If we had relied on commercial companies we'd all be using SNA today, at 30cps terminals costing $2000 per month.

Most of the great American companies came from some government operation that would never have happed had their fate been left to private enterprise.

LindsayRichards wrote:

The iPhone and iPod are better products, but then they had no competition at the time. There wasn't anything to choose between.

That's called American innovation, just like fracking. You can down play it all you wish, but private innovation is responsible for most of the world's successes. The TVA hasn't done too much lately.

There is incremental innovation and breakthrough innovation. Smart phones already existed when Apple came out with the first iPhone in 2007. MP3 players already existed, such as the Creative Zen, when Apple came out with the iPod. What Apple has done is to create carefully stylized gadgets that create a cultlike desire in consumers. They also have the ecosystem with the iTunes stores to make it easy for consumers to buy downloadable music and applications.

As far as fracking, the first commercially fracked well occurred in 1949. Directional drilling has occurred since 1934. So no breakthrough innovation there in the Bakken. Just more incremental refinement.

OMG, we three in agreement!?!

Just to not agree too much, there has been little, probably no innovation in the cereal market forever, yet it thrives, selling us a few ounces of grain for more than the price of a bushel of same.

Nearly 40 years ago the FTC claimed a shared monopoly existed, squeezing out competition. The claim failed, after wasting a bunch of our dollars. But the absurdity of the term aside, it was just better pricing and positioning due to better advertising, IMO.

LindsayRichards wrote:
... Folks who do not innovate, don't last too long....

True. Especially in tech and manufacturing where innovation has real market value. But unfortunately, in sunset industries the only areas open to innovation are financial manipulation, whether through acquisitions and mergers, bribery of government through campaign contributions, finessing customers with complex contracts and billing, etc. THOSE areas of innovation are spurious and contribute nothing to society.

For example, monopoly telephone manipulations which create unintelligible contracts and bills and result in huge costs for piddling services in monopoly markets.

vikrv wrote:

LindsayRichards wrote:

The feee market will usually pick the product that puts the most money into marketing. Unfortunately that leaves less for R&D...

Henry Ford and Thomas Edison would disagree as would Apple, Microsoft, and millions of other companies. Folks who do not innovate, don't last too long. Ask Palm Pilot, Royal typewriters, Sears, Blockbuster, Hostess Brands and a whole lot more. Savy business people know this to their core.

Haven't you heard the famous Henry Ford quote "You can have any color you want, as long as its black"? What about the Ford Edsel and Pinto?

As far as Apple and Microsoft, neither invented the computer windowing system nor the computer mouse. Those were invented by Xerox Parc research labs. Steve Jobs toured the labs, and within a few years out came the Apple Lisa, then the Apple Macintosh with windowing systems and a mouse. Except Apple dumbed the mouse down and gave it just one button.

I have an Apple iPhone and it is a nice piece of hardware, however Apple spent way to much time on the design details, things like rounded corners and glass fronts and backs, and not enough time on details that matter. Great camera, 8 megapixel. However when you browse your photos, they can't show the time/date stamp of the photo, unlike a point and shoot camera. Who made that great design decision? They believe you can get that information when you download the photos to your computer. Apple's downfall will be that they do not believe in customer research, they think they know better than the consumer what the consumer wants.

I'll agree with you on Apple plus it is a USA thing where as they ignored Europe and now they have only the market in the US. That will be there down fall.
I firmly believe that we need to embrace American products,American innovation, energy and non-oil products for our future.

As I travel the USA at times I wonder what country I am in with all the foreign cars. Our future is here with us not elsewhere.

Continuing diesel in GA 4.05, Al 3.89 MS 3.87

The iPhone and iPod are better products, but then they had no competition at the time. There wasn't anything to choose between.

That's called American innovation, just like fracking. You can down play it all you wish, but private innovation is responsible for most of the world's successes. The TVA hasn't done too much lately.

Actually Apple wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the government. Microsoft loaned/gave/invested in Apple when they were about to go under to avoid even more anti-trust investigation. Without the pressure from the anti-trust lawsuits and government investigation Apple wouldn't be in business today.

The iPhone and iPod are better products, but then they had no competition at the time. There wasn't anything to choose between.

Apple is one of the most successful companies in the history of mankind. (I am a Windows and Android guy myself, but they will be replaced by somebody else down the road just as Google replaced a whole lot of other search engines by good research. Kodak thought Polaroid was a flash in the pan. Film makers thought digital cameras were just a fad. Point and shoot camera makers thought phone cameras wouldn't last. Ford's black cars must have been what the customers wanted because they thrived. The point is if left along, the free market will hasten development to fit what is needed at the time. The era of large government project waned half a century ago.

LindsayRichards wrote:

The feee market will usually pick the product that puts the most money into marketing. Unfortunately that leaves less for R&D...

Henry Ford and Thomas Edison would disagree as would Apple, Microsoft, and millions of other companies. Folks who do not innovate, don't last too long. Ask Palm Pilot, Royal typewriters, Sears, Blockbuster, Hostess Brands and a whole lot more. Savy business people know this to their core.

Haven't you heard the famous Henry Ford quote "You can have any color you want, as long as its black"? What about the Ford Edsel and Pinto?

As far as Apple and Microsoft, neither invented the computer windowing system nor the computer mouse. Those were invented by Xerox Parc research labs. Steve Jobs toured the labs, and within a few years out came the Apple Lisa, then the Apple Macintosh with windowing systems and a mouse. Except Apple dumbed the mouse down and gave it just one button.

I have an Apple iPhone and it is a nice piece of hardware, however Apple spent way to much time on the design details, things like rounded corners and glass fronts and backs, and not enough time on details that matter. Great camera, 8 megapixel. However when you browse your photos, they can't show the time/date stamp of the photo, unlike a point and shoot camera. Who made that great design decision? They believe you can get that information when you download the photos to your computer. Apple's downfall will be that they do not believe in customer research, they think they know better than the consumer what the consumer wants.