This kinda thing can't help but keep fuel prices down.

John & Angela wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

Yes to all the above but remember. Tesla is not a car company, it is a technology company. Cars are just one thing they do. Tesla is also the single biggest driver of this kind of technology in North America right now, meaning that what they do also drives other companies to develop technology marketable the world over. Although there are many who would like to see Tesla fail for various reasons there is currently no other players in the north American market that will easily fill the void. Many analysts feel that if it does fail the technology leadership role will pass to the Chinese and Europe and never come back. At least three European countries have been tempting Tesla with offers to move the operation to various EU locations. As well the Chinese will be exporting electric vehicles into the North American market place within two to three years. There is political pressure to see them succeed on this side of the pond. I'm not a share holder and both our EV's are built by other companies but I can understand the reasoning for "enabling" there success. Just saying.

Tesla talks about being a technology company but they haven't sold anything else but cars, so that makes them a car company until they start selling other things.

They also aren't pushing the other car companies. The other car companies are reacting to govt mandates or they wouldn't be bothering. Notice, Ford didn't get caught up in the govt bailout is also much less interested in pure electric. GM who was essentially taken over by the Govt, fast tracked a pure electric car.

If you want to point to autonomous systems, everyone does variations on those and for years has had programs developing them. Only difference is as a small start up, Tesla is taking far riskier approach and not vetting the systems as well. Large mature companies take a more circumspect approach as they have seen the issues with moving too quickly.

Mike I think I'll respectfully disagree on this one. I see lots of spinoff industry developing. There is also powerwall sales, EV roof sales, solar panel manufacturing, even supercharger network and infrastructure development all generating jobs and exports. About half of their cars are built for export and although I'm not an American I catch snippets of news that indicate that is an important issue in your country right now. As well , every S and X sold in the US is a BMW or Benz not imported. JMHO Mike.

Safe travels.

Tesla is a car company that tries to be a technology company. It pretty much fails miserably at both.

CR does not recommend Tesla. Too many problems. This is a $120,000 dollar luxury car! Or tries to be! Remember, Tesla had this same car for many, many years now and it still has all of these problems.

Now lets look at how many solar panels they make:

Link

Do you see Tesla on this chart? And some listed make less than 1%.

I have already showed you that they don't make a profit in the other post.

They don't make reliable cars.
They don't make a profit.
They only make a few solar panels a year.


I have to ask: what do they do well? :?

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

rk911 wrote:
my point was that it's not just the commute to/from work. it's all of the other things we do on the way to, from and sometimes during work breaks, lunch hours, etc. and then there are all of the things we do on days off that exceed the puny 20-mi range of a so called 'affordable EV'. no, an around-town EV is going to need a minimum range of 100-mi at full electrical load (lights, wipers, AC, radio, etc) and be affordable for the average Joe before it will be acceptable. govt can try and drive this down everyone's throat but innovation and the market place will determine when this will become a reality.

Good morning Rich. Rich I'm not an expert on EV's but I don't know of a single 20 mile EV. affordable or otherwise. Are you referrring to a concept vehicle maybe? I think with the exception of the mercedes smart electric drive which is around 70 miles or 110 km I think they are all over 100 miles of range now. I think most of the new 2018 models will be north of 150 miles of range. BMW i3, leaf, obviously the Tesla model 3 and bolt with more than 200. I may have mis understood your post.

I believe the 20 mile range was in reference to plug-in hybrids. For a large percentage of drivers 20 mile range can supply 70-95% of the miles under electric but seamless transition to gas power for longer trips.

The flaw with the Volt is by pushing for higher ranges, they had to incorporate more complicated and expensive systems. This drove up the cost to where it doesn't make economic sense. ($34k base price and it was much higher when it first came out).

By contrast the prius plug-in hybrid with only 25 mile range comes in at $27k base price but for most, they will burn a negligible amount of extra gas, especially when you consider in gas mode, the prius still gets 52mpg (vs 42mpg for the Volt).

Ah yes. I see what you are saying. I had to read back a few posts for context. . My bad. Thanks for clearing that up.

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

Yes to all the above but remember. Tesla is not a car company, it is a technology company. Cars are just one thing they do. Tesla is also the single biggest driver of this kind of technology in North America right now, meaning that what they do also drives other companies to develop technology marketable the world over. Although there are many who would like to see Tesla fail for various reasons there is currently no other players in the north American market that will easily fill the void. Many analysts feel that if it does fail the technology leadership role will pass to the Chinese and Europe and never come back. At least three European countries have been tempting Tesla with offers to move the operation to various EU locations. As well the Chinese will be exporting electric vehicles into the North American market place within two to three years. There is political pressure to see them succeed on this side of the pond. I'm not a share holder and both our EV's are built by other companies but I can understand the reasoning for "enabling" there success. Just saying.

Tesla talks about being a technology company but they haven't sold anything else but cars, so that makes them a car company until they start selling other things.

They also aren't pushing the other car companies. The other car companies are reacting to govt mandates or they wouldn't be bothering. Notice, Ford didn't get caught up in the govt bailout is also much less interested in pure electric. GM who was essentially taken over by the Govt, fast tracked a pure electric car.

If you want to point to autonomous systems, everyone does variations on those and for years has had programs developing them. Only difference is as a small start up, Tesla is taking far riskier approach and not vetting the systems as well. Large mature companies take a more circumspect approach as they have seen the issues with moving too quickly.

Mike I think I'll respectfully disagree on this one. I see lots of spinoff industry developing. There is also powerwall sales, EV roof sales, solar panel manufacturing, even supercharger network and infrastructure development all generating jobs and exports. About half of their cars are built for export and although I'm not an American I catch snippets of news that indicate that is an important issue in your country right now. As well , every S and X sold in the US is a BMW or Benz not imported. JMHO Mike.

Safe travels.

John & Angela wrote:

rk911 wrote:
my point was that it's not just the commute to/from work. it's all of the other things we do on the way to, from and sometimes during work breaks, lunch hours, etc. and then there are all of the things we do on days off that exceed the puny 20-mi range of a so called 'affordable EV'. no, an around-town EV is going to need a minimum range of 100-mi at full electrical load (lights, wipers, AC, radio, etc) and be affordable for the average Joe before it will be acceptable. govt can try and drive this down everyone's throat but innovation and the market place will determine when this will become a reality.

Good morning Rich. Rich I'm not an expert on EV's but I don't know of a single 20 mile EV. affordable or otherwise. Are you referrring to a concept vehicle maybe? I think with the exception of the mercedes smart electric drive which is around 70 miles or 110 km I think they are all over 100 miles of range now. I think most of the new 2018 models will be north of 150 miles of range. BMW i3, leaf, obviously the Tesla model 3 and bolt with more than 200. I may have mis understood your post.

I believe the 20 mile range was in reference to plug-in hybrids. For a large percentage of drivers 20 mile range can supply 70-95% of the miles under electric but seamless transition to gas power for longer trips.

The flaw with the Volt is by pushing for higher ranges, they had to incorporate more complicated and expensive systems. This drove up the cost to where it doesn't make economic sense. ($34k base price and it was much higher when it first came out).

By contrast the prius plug-in hybrid with only 25 mile range comes in at $27k base price but for most, they will burn a negligible amount of extra gas, especially when you consider in gas mode, the prius still gets 52mpg (vs 42mpg for the Volt).

John & Angela wrote:

Yes to all the above but remember. Tesla is not a car company, it is a technology company. Cars are just one thing they do. Tesla is also the single biggest driver of this kind of technology in North America right now, meaning that what they do also drives other companies to develop technology marketable the world over. Although there are many who would like to see Tesla fail for various reasons there is currently no other players in the north American market that will easily fill the void. Many analysts feel that if it does fail the technology leadership role will pass to the Chinese and Europe and never come back. At least three European countries have been tempting Tesla with offers to move the operation to various EU locations. As well the Chinese will be exporting electric vehicles into the North American market place within two to three years. There is political pressure to see them succeed on this side of the pond. I'm not a share holder and both our EV's are built by other companies but I can understand the reasoning for "enabling" there success. Just saying.

Tesla talks about being a technology company but they haven't sold anything else but cars, so that makes them a car company until they start selling other things.

They also aren't pushing the other car companies. The other car companies are reacting to govt mandates or they wouldn't be bothering. Notice, Ford didn't get caught up in the govt bailout is also much less interested in pure electric. GM who was essentially taken over by the Govt, fast tracked a pure electric car.

If you want to point to autonomous systems, everyone does variations on those and for years has had programs developing them. Only difference is as a small start up, Tesla is taking far riskier approach and not vetting the systems as well. Large mature companies take a more circumspect approach as they have seen the issues with moving too quickly.

rk911 wrote:
my point was that it's not just the commute to/from work. it's all of the other things we do on the way to, from and sometimes during work breaks, lunch hours, etc. and then there are all of the things we do on days off that exceed the puny 20-mi range of a so called 'affordable EV'. no, an around-town EV is going to need a minimum range of 100-mi at full electrical load (lights, wipers, AC, radio, etc) and be affordable for the average Joe before it will be acceptable. govt can try and drive this down everyone's throat but innovation and the market place will determine when this will become a reality.

So twice a week you exceed the 20 mile range by 10 miles and burn 1/2 gal as opposed to burning 8-10 gal per week. And when the time comes to take a 300 mile road trip, you just stop for 5min to fill up the tank when gas gets low. No need to search for a charging station and then kill an hour waiting for a charge.

I won't lie to you. There is still a cost and emissions to generating the electric but both are much lower per gallon replaced.

rk911 wrote:
my point was that it's not just the commute to/from work. it's all of the other things we do on the way to, from and sometimes during work breaks, lunch hours, etc. and then there are all of the things we do on days off that exceed the puny 20-mi range of a so called 'affordable EV'. no, an around-town EV is going to need a minimum range of 100-mi at full electrical load (lights, wipers, AC, radio, etc) and be affordable for the average Joe before it will be acceptable. govt can try and drive this down everyone's throat but innovation and the market place will determine when this will become a reality.

Good morning Rich. Rich I'm not an expert on EV's but I don't know of a single 20 mile EV. affordable or otherwise. Are you referrring to a concept vehicle maybe? I think with the exception of the mercedes smart electric drive which is around 70 miles or 110 km I think they are all over 100 miles of range now. I think most of the new 2018 models will be north of 150 miles of range. BMW i3, leaf, obviously the Tesla model 3 and bolt with more than 200. I may have mis understood your post.

rk911 wrote:
my point was that it's not just the commute to/from work. it's all of the other things we do on the way to, from and sometimes during work breaks, lunch hours, etc. and then there are all of the things we do on days off that exceed the puny 20-mi range of a so called 'affordable EV'. no, an around-town EV is going to need a minimum range of 100-mi at full electrical load (lights, wipers, AC, radio, etc) and be affordable for the average Joe before it will be acceptable. govt can try and drive this down everyone's throat but innovation and the market place will determine when this will become a reality.

I agree. That is why there will quite likely never be an EV in my driveway. For that matter, there will never be a new vehicle of any kind in my driveway. There are simply too many dollars involved.
As for fuel prices, unleaded regular (87 octane) jumped $.04 per gallon the other day. Diesel jumped $.07 per gallon at the same time, making diesel $.27 more expensive than unleaded 10% ethanol regular.

Times are changing! It looks to me like electric cars will mature about the same time as self driving cars. Those of us who are slow to adopt the electric car may well never drive one. I've enjoyed driving nearly all my life and will miss it. City driving I wouldn't miss so much but driving in the country is very enjoyable.

Someone mentioned electric cars associated with socialism. I see this in Canada. Alberta, until recently a conservative province, has very few electric cars (I've never seen one myself). Ontario, socialist for decades, is big on solar energy and electric cars. An Ontario friend, an early adopter, has his home covered with electric panels which supply his home and electric car. He got a subsidized solar installation and enjoys a massively subsidized price for electricity going into the grid (20 times what power plants get) so it is a lucrative choice for him. In Alberta, people feeding power into the grid get the same price as other people buy from it at. I recently enjoyed a workshop by the solar society of Alberta concluding that it isn't really worth going solar unless you are farming and can claim the solar system as a cost of your farming business.

valhalla360 wrote:

free radical wrote:

Future is electric get ready..
Tesla is worth more then GM now,,and plans to add 3 or 4 more giga
factories,so unless other automakers get into the game fast they will be left behind..
Btw Tesla is coming up with electric semi this year,,things will get interesting..

https://electrek.co

Correction.

Tesla's total stock is selling for more than GM's total stock. That is much different from "worth".

By any objective method, Tesla is a tiny fraction of GM's value and there are no signs of it changing any time soon.

Tesla is "coming up" with a lot of things but they never seem to "come up" with a profit.

Yes to all the above but remember. Tesla is not a car company, it is a technology company. Cars are just one thing they do. Tesla is also the single biggest driver of this kind of technology in North America right now, meaning that what they do also drives other companies to develop technology marketable the world over. Although there are many who would like to see Tesla fail for various reasons there is currently no other players in the north American market that will easily fill the void. Many analysts feel that if it does fail the technology leadership role will pass to the Chinese and Europe and never come back. At least three European countries have been tempting Tesla with offers to move the operation to various EU locations. As well the Chinese will be exporting electric vehicles into the North American market place within two to three years. There is political pressure to see them succeed on this side of the pond. I'm not a share holder and both our EV's are built by other companies but I can understand the reasoning for "enabling" there success. Just saying.