Question for everyone who uses an inverter generator.Do you use a surge guard when running a generator or is it not neccessary?Reason why I know many of you use one to protect a/c from low voltage etc. so is it required? I'm talking surge guard that are not permanently installed, I'm asking about the portable ones. Thanks

icanon wrote:Question for everyone who uses an inverter generator.Do you use a surge guard when running a generator or is it not neccessary?Reason why I know many of you use one to protect a/c from low voltage etc. so is it required? I'm talking surge guard that are not permanently installed, I'm asking about the portable ones.The correct answer is "it depends" ;) - on the particulars of both the generator and the surge protector you're using and has little to do with whether the surge protector is portable or hard wired.I have a Honda EU2000i which has a floating neutral output & an early version TRC Surge Guard #34730 without the LCD display panel and found those two would play well together. I've also powered that early version SG with my EU2000i's floating neutral output bonded and although it worked fine with this particular combination some surge protection owner's manuals warn against bonding. That early version SG was replaced by the #34730-001 which does have an LCD screen but since then that version has been supplanted by the new #34830 which includes open ground detection and I suspect it would not be wise to plug it into a generator's floating neutral output nor would bonding be a good idea. Just last week I replaced that portable TRC Surge Guard with a hard wire Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C and the owner's manual specifically warns to never the plug the EMS into any inverter of any kind so emailed PI to see if that includes inverter gensets as well. In the meantime, I wired my new EMS into my trailer using standard 30 amp RV connectors so those times I may want to power the trailer either with my 1000 watt PSW inverter or my Honda EU2000i inverter genset I can simply remove the EMS entirely from the system.Generator make / model could also be very important ... consider this Progressive Industries Disclaimer which warns to never use any of their EMS units with a Yamaha EF2000iS generator. I emailed PI for clarification and the answer is this particular genset at certain phases in it's operation produces a non-sinusoidal waveform that can destroy the PI EMS units ... do so and your PI lifetime warranty is voided. This in part is the most recent reply I received from Progressive on this subject ..."Concerning the use of a generator with an inverter, our EMS are designed to be used in the RV environment using a commercial power source. The hazard to our device when using an aftermarket generator, is that some provide a modified sine output, which can cause damage. Others provide a pure sine wave at all times, and others will switch to a modified sine wave under heavy loads. The portion of our units than can be damaged is the surge protect and is not bypassed using the bypass switch. Since there are many brands of generators on the market and numerous models I can not offer specific guidance on which one to select."As often is the case the devil is in the details and I sure wouldn't take WAGs from online discussions like this as gospel when the only correct answer to your question really is "it depends". ;)

Soundguy thanksReason why I stated portable is that folk with 'hardwired' have no choice or bypass the system.Thanks again for info good to know.

I understand Progressive now sells a bonding plug adapter for the 30amp side.

You will get 2 answers to this question, and they are both right.Answer 1: You don't need to protect from the generator, as they are far less likely to have power problems.Answer2: You need to protect from the generator because they can still have power problems.Both are right. Generators do have far fewer power problems, but they still can have problems.I put my built-in protection just before the power enters the breaker box so I am protected from the generator too.hbillsmith wrote:I understand Progressive now sells a bonding plug adapter for the 30amp side.By golly, you are right. Look what I just found on the Progressive Industries website for $18.80! Of course, you can still make one for less than $3 by going to a big box hardware store.http://www.progressiveindustries.net/#!generator-plug/c1mwy

icanon wrote:Reason why I stated portable is that folk with 'hardwired' have no choice or bypass the system.Well that doesn't have to be the case ... regardless of brand all one has to do when wiring in a hard wire surge protector is to add a set of 30 amp connectors to the incoming main service line and a couple of matching 30 amp pigtails to the surge protector itself so it can be removed anytime in seconds, just as I've done.Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C Surge Protector - Removable InstallationSecondly, it should be noted that switching the EMS to "bypass" is a bit of a misnomer as that doesn't actually remove it entirely from the system as the surge protection part of the system always remains active. The only way to truly "bypass" the EMS is to remove it from the system, either physically or by externally switching it out of the system - for simplicity I've chosen the former as I will be doing this whenever I may be plugging into either my 1000 watt PSW inverter or Honda EU2000i inverter genset.One might wonder why I chose the hard wire EMS-HW30C over your portable EMS-PT30C which I could have also installed inside the trailer by adding 30 amp connectors to the incoming main service cable ..... :h First, and most importantly, my hard wire model is field serviceable so should it ever fail I can repair it myself by simply dropping in a new circuit board that Progressive will supply under terms of the lifetime warranty. OTOH your portable version is factory sealed and must be returned to Progressive for repair ... not as much of an issue for anyone in the US where Progressive Industries is located but much more of a hassle for those of us here Canada as it means dealing with customs.Secondly, I can adjust the hard wire version's delay time to either 15 secs or 136 secs ... for now I've left it at 15 sec for the convenience but next season when we begin using our Dometic Brisk II A/C which doesn't have built in compressor delay I'll switch the EMS's delay to 136 secs. Your portable unit is fixed at 136 secs.Third, now that I have it installed I really like the informative Monitor Display that scrolls through Error, Previous Error, Incoming Source Voltage, Current Draw, and Frequency. Your portable version does as well but because it would normally be sitting at the campsite post I'd find that much less useful and if I instead installed it inside the camper as I did with my previous portable TRC unit I wouldn't be able to see the display anyway.FWIW, first time out last weekend with my new EMS we lost power in the campground several times so not only did the EMS disconnect the trailer from the failing incoming source power the display, by showing a previous error code, told me that in the course of losing that power the source also lost ground. :E Gotta say, I'm really impressed with this Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C. :B

Generator and Surge guard | Good Sam Community

Bobbo
Explorer II
Oct 09, 2015
SoundGuy wrote:
What I'm having difficulty with is Progressive wanting to have it both ways

You've never seen double talk before? Lucky you. Standard item in most any company's arsenal. You will never be able to pin them down.
SoundGuy
Explorer
Oct 09, 2015
SoundGuy wrote:
What I'm having difficulty with is Progressive wanting to have it both ways

Bobbo wrote:
You've never seen double talk before? Lucky you. Standard item in most any company's arsenal. You will never be able to pin them down.

I guess I was hoping for an exception here considering what seems to be a fairly stellar reputation for Progressive on this and other forums ... silly me. :S In the meantime, after viewing Mike Sokol's video in which he demonstrated plugging an EMS-HW30C into a Honda EU3000iS with a floating output and apparently not destroying his EMS I decided this morning to try it myself by bonding my own EU2000i. As I should have expected my EMS did not self destruct, showed E0 which means no errors, and did properly pass power on to my trailer but the question therefore remains as to why Progressive won't categorically say "YES you can or NO you can't" when it comes to powering an RV with a genset and if so whether neutral / ground bonding is an acceptable method of ensuring their EMS doesn't see a floating neutral as an open ground and therefore not pass power on to the RV. Since they sell a bonding plug as an accessory item then I want to know why they say in the EMS-HW30C owner's manual - "Never bond the neutral and ground together for any reason." Perhaps they're referring to inside the EMS itself (though I can't imagine why anyone would do that anyway) so I don't see that this should be such a difficult question to answer. :h
Bobbo
Explorer II
Oct 09, 2015
A definitive answer would pin them down in the event of a lawsuit.
gatorcq
Explorer
Oct 11, 2015
so, why the disclaimer only really on the yamaha?
SoundGuy
Explorer
Oct 11, 2015
gatorcq wrote:
so, why the disclaimer only really on the yamaha?

Obviously only Progressive would know the real answer to this question. My own guess is they saw an unusual number of EMS failures, were able to link those failures to use with a Yamaha EF2000iS generator, and upon further investigation found unusual waveform characteristics from this particular generator that could damage their EMS units. Keep in mind that Progressive's official position is that their EMS units are designed to protect RV electrical systems when being fed by a conventional campground power source and not specifically from a generator, despite the fact that in reality many owners do want to sometimes power their rig with a genset. Regardless, for the company to officially take a position on this by posting an online disclaimer that voids the lifetime warranty on any of their EMS units if used with this particular genset is significant. In one of my emails to the company I had asked about using my Honda EU2000i with my new EMS-HW30C and received the following reply -

"Concerning the use of a generator with an inverter, our EMS are designed to be used in the RV environment using a commercial power source. The hazard to our device when using an aftermarket generator, is that some provide a modified sine output, which can cause damage. Others provide a pure sine wave at all times, and others will switch to a modified sine wave under heavy loads. The portion of our units than can be damaged is the surge protect and is not bypassed using the bypass switch. Since there are many brands of generators on the market and numerous models I can not offer specific guidance on which one to select."

Based on this I'm guessing they found that the Yamaha EF2000iS was one of those models, and although designed to output a pure sine wave signal this particular model does under some circumstances output some version of modified sine wave that doesn't sit well with their EMS units. What I can definitively say now - because I've done it - is that if I bond the floating neutral output of my own Honda EU2000i my new EMS does pass voltage to it's output and on to the trailer whether the genset is running on ECO, full speed, or anywhere in between, loaded or unloaded, and therefore as far as I can tell it's safe to use this combination to power my trailer. Unfortunately, unless any prospective owner is aware of this Progressive / Yamaha disclaimer, they could well go ahead and use an EF2000iS anyway and blow out their new Progressive EMS, with no recourse because the company has made it clear they will void warranty on the unit.
Winged_One
Explorer
Oct 11, 2015
Shew, glad I got a 3000ISEB. Nothing blown up yet after 3 summers and a bonded plug.
SoundGuy
Explorer
Oct 11, 2015
Winged One wrote:
Shew, glad I got a 3000ISEB. Nothing blown up yet after 3 summers and a bonded plug.

Yeah, but are you also using a Progressive EMS? :@
gatorcq
Explorer
Oct 11, 2015
thank you for the insight, but the Honda is also a MSW, is it not?
Winged_One
Explorer
Oct 11, 2015
SoundGuy wrote:
Winged One wrote:
Shew, glad I got a 3000ISEB. Nothing blown up yet after 3 summers and a bonded plug.

Yeah, but are you also using a Progressive EMS? :@

Yes, the EMS-HW50C.
randallb
Explorer
Oct 11, 2015
I just thought I would chime in. I purchased a "cheap" Sportsman 3200W generator with RV connector to use in very limited circumstances with our new 30A trailer. When I hooked it up everything worked great but when I tried to use my Progressive Industries PT-30C it would not trip on. I now use a 15A male plug with the ground and neutral connected, as per PI, plugged in to one of the outlets on the face of the genny to bond the neutral and ground. I also run a 3' grounding rod off of the ground lug on the face of the genny. I want to run my PT30C with the generator because it is a cheap generator and if it decides to go bonkers I will be protected. When it is time to use the generator for running electrical tools on the property I just unplug the bonding plug and all is good. Read your generator instructions on why bonding is not a good idea when running electrical hand tools.
Randy

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