lithium question

HMS Beagle wrote:
To be pedantic, there are almost no EVs with LFP batteries except a few homebuilts. All manufactured EVs use some other lithium chemistry, typically lithium cobalt. LFP (short for Lithium Ferris Phosphate) are less energy dense, but much more fire resistant. I'm just pointing this out because many people will say the lithium batteries are unsafe and burn, just look at the Tesla and Boeing fires, without understanding the difference.

Hmmm. Might be a misunderstanding of terms on my part. I’m not an expert. Presently all the Tesla model 3 SR plus models sold in China and Europe are using LFP batteries. The US made model 3 SR plus (now just called standard range) are available with the LFP battery. They are a little slower and heavier. Presently the LFP battery for these models come from China but the Tesla Nevada will also be building these in the new year.

This is a fairly recent development. All over the last 3 to 9 months depending on factory.

Heads up, all the long range models still use the normal Tesla batteries. They are not LFP. Lithium cobalt etc.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1133942_tesla-plans-shift-to-lfp-cells-for-model-3-and-model-y-likely-with-us-production

To be pedantic, there are almost no EVs with LFP batteries except a few homebuilts. All manufactured EVs use some other lithium chemistry, typically lithium cobalt. LFP (short for Lithium Ferris Phosphate) are less energy dense, but much more fire resistant. I'm just pointing this out because many people will say the lithium batteries are unsafe and burn, just look at the Tesla and Boeing fires, without understanding the difference.

StirCrazy wrote:

Reisender wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

S Davis wrote:


EVE LifeP04 cells are 10% to 90% for 3500 cycles, they should still have 80% capacity at that point. If so these should outlast me.

I think your missreading that a bit.. the industry standard is that the cycles they list are based off a 100% usage. they recomend 10-90% use range and that will extend your cycle life possibly up to 5000-7000 cycles, before you reach that 80% threshhold. then that 80% could be maintained for another 10 years or longer, if you treat them good.

Steve

Yep. This is why Hertz rent a car is buying 100,000 base models of an EV that uses LFP batteries. An expected battery lifetime of a million kilometres vice other chemistries. You can pretty much run LFP to zero frequently without as much worry of damage. 10 to 90 is much better though. The sacrifice is they are heavier and performance suffers a bit from the higher end models.

We are kicking around the idea of putting something like a battle born in our new little trailer that comes with 2 x 6 volt AGM’s. The cheap skate in me says live with the AGM’s and wait a few more years and the price delta to come down. Guess we’ll see.

haha AGM, up here, are more expensive that some of the new LFP on the market. and if you can hook up a four 6V battery sety up in your camper you can build your own batter setup with prismatic LFP cells which is so much cheeper. Battle born is way over priced now, there trying to hold on to the prices they set when they were only one of 3 competators in the market and I believe they all agreeded on a price range.

Steve

Yep, they are pricey. But am I right? You seem to have a good handle on this. The trailer comes from the factory with 2 x 6!volt AGMs. Would an LFP 31 not be giving up a bit as far as useable amp hours? They are in a heated area so that’s not an issue.

Reisender wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

S Davis wrote:


EVE LifeP04 cells are 10% to 90% for 3500 cycles, they should still have 80% capacity at that point. If so these should outlast me.

I think your missreading that a bit.. the industry standard is that the cycles they list are based off a 100% usage. they recomend 10-90% use range and that will extend your cycle life possibly up to 5000-7000 cycles, before you reach that 80% threshhold. then that 80% could be maintained for another 10 years or longer, if you treat them good.

Steve

Yep. This is why Hertz rent a car is buying 100,000 base models of an EV that uses LFP batteries. An expected battery lifetime of a million kilometres vice other chemistries. You can pretty much run LFP to zero frequently without as much worry of damage. 10 to 90 is much better though. The sacrifice is they are heavier and performance suffers a bit from the higher end models.

We are kicking around the idea of putting something like a battle born in our new little trailer that comes with 2 x 6 volt AGM’s. The cheap skate in me says live with the AGM’s and wait a few more years and the price delta to come down. Guess we’ll see.

haha AGM, up here, are more expensive that some of the new LFP on the market. and if you can hook up a four 6V battery sety up in your camper you can build your own batter setup with prismatic LFP cells which is so much cheeper. Battle born is way over priced now, there trying to hold on to the prices they set when they were only one of 3 competators in the market and I believe they all agreeded on a price range.

Steve

jaycocreek wrote:
There fun,experimenting yesterday with solar charging on one of my LFP,I decided to only charge it to 90% with solar...The charts I have seen,show 13.4v as 90% so the solar takes it to 13.4v and cuts back to almost nothing and it still shows boost mode...The problem is even though my chart shows 13.4 as 90% my recently calibrated victron shunt shows 82.5% SOC..

So much for the charts huh...lol

How about note the voltage as the shunt says 90% and set the charge controller there.
13.4 may well get you to 90% but may take an extended period.

If you have a charger (solar or otherwise) that puts out 14.x volts (not to exceed 14.6), with constant current and voltage, and you have the means to shut it off once charged (or shortly thereafter…), then be advised that you have a lithium charger…

3 tons

There fun,experimenting yesterday with solar charging on one of my LFP,I decided to only charge it to 90% with solar...The charts I have seen,show 13.4v as 90% so the solar takes it to 13.4v and cuts back to almost nothing and it still shows boost mode...The problem is even though my chart shows 13.4 as 90% my recently calibrated victron shunt shows 82.5% SOC..

So much for the charts huh...lol

3 tons wrote:
It seems a Lithium battery is kinda like pregnancy…If you’ve never experienced charging or discharging one, it may be a bit difficult for the uninitiated to relate to - occasionally, a few imaginary red-flags tend to find resonance…

3 tons

:).

Also just found out that the new trailer will come with a “lithium ready” converter which is new for this year. So I guess that is good. Now leaning a little more that way. Still seems a shame to remove two brand new 6 volt AGM’s. They are mounted inside under the bed just behind the axle. If I replace them with a battle born 31 I believe I’ll lose some useable amp hours so may have to go with two BB’s. Ugh. At least they will be where it’s wam. The hydronic heat appliance is in the same space. :) We’ll see how it goes.

It seems a Lithium battery is kinda like pregnancy…If you’ve never experienced charging or discharging one, it may be a bit difficult for the uninitiated to relate to - occasionally, a few imaginary red-flags tend to find resonance…

3 tons

pianotuna wrote:

time2roll wrote:

pianotuna wrote:
You can. But you won't get the same number of cycles. There are a whole bunch of hoops to jump through if that is the goal.

I am not sure I understand this statement.
Charging to maybe 95% with 13.6 volts should yield more longevity in a lithium battery.

For MAXIMUM cycles charge starting at 40% and stop charging at 90%. How do you manage that with a wfco?

If you must be exact you will have a battery monitor. Nothing wrong with 10% to 90% for maximum cycles. Really not that hard to stay in that very wide middle range. If the full 100% is used periodically it will still last 3500+ cycles and that would be 10 years cycling 100% every single day.