Mercedes ditching diesels in North America

Another advantage of distributed battery storage is that power transmission does not have to carry peak load. You can run the wire at 90% capacity 24/7 instead of just for the two hours of peak load. Potentially the existing distribution could transmit twice the total energy.

Forcing one's self to live in reality is anything but a "dis-incentive" What it is is a clear eyed realization of what things are going to be REALLY like and not the processed opinion of someone who has no idea of what a developed concept entails.

Try and follow my bread crumbs left throughout the discussion. Two realities exposed. The first one deals with infrastructure expansion. It has to be done. It will be done and YOU will be involved in the payment process.

Perhaps I should have avoided obtaining an economics degree. Even though it is ludicrous to think a degree is necessary to see the TITANIC SHORTFALL in general revenue funds that will no longer be supplied on a federal, state or local level by taxes paid on petroleum. "Oooooo everyone should rejoice!" government says "You were good little boys and girls!" Therefore we are dispensing with any notion of transferring the debt load onto electrical use AND GENERATION.

This is not tit for tat. If it was tit for tat, the cost of CONSTRUCTING infrastructure would not create a tax obligation. Tens of millions of tons of steel for transmission, millions of tons of aluminum, thousands and tens of thousands of new transformers. Cost of acquiring property and easements. Salaries for employees to maintain the added infrastructure.

But wait! Somehow it's going to all work out and be FREE FREE FREE! Despite a political system that wants nothing more than fewer taxes for corporate endeavors while their opponents are cast in stone Tax and Spend.

You can start off by doing a workup on the amount of petroleum sales in the USA and the revenue generated by such sales.

Wuuwee, the screams of my economics professors resonate in my ears :(

Ductape wrote:
Funny how easy it is to see the future requirements for electrical infrastructure costs as a disincentive, while forgetting all the sunk costs in petroleum distribution. Pipelines, refineries, tanker ships and trucks... gas stations, all that didn't appear overnight.

Thing is, the technology now allows distributed electrical consumption and production. That's huge, as transmission systems can be optimized to be load balancing rather than all one way. And the end user has control of what level of self sufficiency they desire to invest in.

Not many of us can afford to own our own petro sources. And the neighbors complain if you operate your own refinery.

the electrical system in the U.S. is actually 3 distinct systems, not inter tied. easy distribution and load sharing within each system. Not so easy between systems.

The Western interconnect, the Eastern interconnect, and then of course there is the One state solution, Texas which is yet a third.

Each can operate independently AFAIK, but load sharing between them is not easy if even possible. they are not directly connected to each other nor synchronized. that last one is a VERY big issue to inter tie. Grids must be synchronized to interconnect.

Also the eastern grid has a much looser tolerance on maintaing 60 Hz or short term periods.

Funny how easy it is to see the future requirements for electrical infrastructure costs as a disincentive, while forgetting all the sunk costs in petroleum distribution. Pipelines, refineries, tanker ships and trucks... gas stations, all that didn't appear overnight.

Thing is, the technology now allows distributed electrical consumption and production. That's huge, as transmission systems can be optimized to be load balancing rather than all one way. And the end user has control of what level of self sufficiency they desire to invest in.

Not many of us can afford to own our own petro sources. And the neighbors complain if you operate your own refinery.

All it will take is another gas crunch, and this can be spurred on by a ton of things, be it another Middle Eastern unrest, a refinery down, or just a bunch of countries deciding to not produce output. When (not if) this happens, hybrid tech will be the forefront yet again of car sales.

ctilsie242 wrote:
I recall seeing a battery that did actually use Li-air as its battery chemistry a few years back... but I wonder if the research didn't pan out. If done right, it would mean the battery only would need 1/2 to 1/3 the mass for electrolyte as a sealed system.

I do hope for better hybrid systems and infrastructure. As it stands right now, it takes me 5-10 minutes to fill up my vehicle's tank. A charging system may take hours, even at 440VAC, and enough amps to light up an army of Frankenstein's monsters, to get near 95-100 percent SoC.

I wonder if the answer would be a "renewable" fuel, like Audi's synthetic diesel, propane, or perhaps ethanol. At the power plant, put energy to suck CO2 from the air and process it into a liquid, use that liquid at the fuel pumps. This is what people envision with hydrogen, but H2 is too expensive to store to be useful, while an alcohol like ethanol or a fuel like propane is relatively safe and idiot resistant.

today many of the hearing aid batteries are something/air batteries. zinc air and some others. energy density is very high. rechargeable not, at least currently.

not that long ago people were saying that the energy density of batteries would never ever ever equal what we are actually seeing today. And they said the same thing about charging times.

and that wind power/solar power would never amount to anything.

about few years ago I told our kids that in 10 years every car sold and most pickups would be a electric or a hybrid of some sort. anything from all electric to mild hybrid with start stop and a battery large enough to capture braking from 50mph or so and anything in between.

I suspect that I won't be far off. the number of hybrids of some form is rising rapidly.

I recall seeing a battery that did actually use Li-air as its battery chemistry a few years back... but I wonder if the research didn't pan out. If done right, it would mean the battery only would need 1/2 to 1/3 the mass for electrolyte as a sealed system.

I do hope for better hybrid systems and infrastructure. As it stands right now, it takes me 5-10 minutes to fill up my vehicle's tank. A charging system may take hours, even at 440VAC, and enough amps to light up an army of Frankenstein's monsters, to get near 95-100 percent SoC.

I wonder if the answer would be a "renewable" fuel, like Audi's synthetic diesel, propane, or perhaps ethanol. At the power plant, put energy to suck CO2 from the air and process it into a liquid, use that liquid at the fuel pumps. This is what people envision with hydrogen, but H2 is too expensive to store to be useful, while an alcohol like ethanol or a fuel like propane is relatively safe and idiot resistant.

To do a proper audit, we must include the process liability between the two elements in the discussion.

The men go to work, start up heavy industry machines that consume energy and then gather raw material. The raw material is shipped using energy to plants that use energy to convert raw material into finished product. This main entail a dozen or more elements in the chain -- all of which use energy. From earth to solar panel, from earth to battery internals -- how much energy is consumed?

Neither product either raw or finished contains latent energy (still with me?)

Latent energy is when you can toss a match into it and it burns or explodes.

Let's eliminate two or three hundred extra energy consuming links in this long chain...

When finished products are ready to be mated and go to work, for hotel purposes the chain is complete.

When the finished product is intended for distribution it opens up another huge process of energy consuming links in order for the product to be shared. Power line transmission, and distribution. Ho much do transformers cost? Ever audit the process of converting bauxite to finished aluminum? It's pure electricity.

What is hopefully dramatically altered is the production of carbon dioxide and residual remains of petroleum combustion.

Do a workup on the amount of emissions produced in NIGHT TIME power generation. Hydroelectric, and nuclear are the main contenders for massive power generation. Geothermal is cost intensive (ruining heat exchanger components). Got a lot of falling water nearby? Want hourglass shaped structures on your horizon?

NOTHING IS FREE except if you would find a lottery ticket.

Historically when O2 levels climbed because of drought, massive die-offs in tropical rain forests occurred triggered by low levels of sun activity (happening now) and regional drought, the die-off releases more CO2 than man has produced since the beginning of time. This is historic rhythmic climatic cycling -- it's been happening for millions of years.

Compared to a rain forest die-off, electric car usage is not even a drop in the bucket. What is important is to acknowledge if artificial CO2 production will alter climate enough to trigger drought and a mass tropical die off.

The term GLOBAL WARMING IMHO is farcical. It belittles the importance of preventing an artificial tropical drought across O latitude land masses.

A thorough understanding, meaning a NON POLITICAL SELF SUPPORTING audit must be conducted to actually compare the difference in CO2 manufacturing between electricity and "electric" anything must be conducted. Isn't going to happen in a politically charged arena.

While people chant slogans and argue, our oceans are being sterilized by overfishing. Clear-cutting of marine life.

I can only sit back and wonder.

Battery may never have the energy density of gasoline. Because you are not required to carry the oxygen that you burn with the gasoline. Instead the oxygen in the air we breath is burned. How convenient.

ctilsie242 wrote:
My idea of a "future" vehicle would be a gas/electric hybrid. Perhaps one that the gasoline engine is used as a generator and runs at a specific RPM, which will help with its efficiency, while maybe moving to a Crower six-stroke design, assuming engine makers can deal with water's corrosive effects.

Until batteries store something like 1/10 the energy of gasoline, we may see electric cars as city runabouts or maybe able to run longer if going from charging station to charging station, but it will need to be supplemented by a conventional IC system for now.

It would be nice to see a gas/electric hybrid motorhome chassis. One nice advantage is because of the large batteries, having power for running appliances, the A/C, etc. is already present.

remember, efficiency of a gasoline IC engine used for transportation is at best 25 percent efficient, even less when considering in town drive cycle. And electric vehicles are in the high 90 percent with regenerative braking and motor efficiency.

so stored energy needs are about 4:1. Now I agree, the volume energy density of gas wins out right now by a long shot over batteries. And it's volume that counts now.

Now I do agree, for now a hybrid makes the most sense for a single vehicle.

But given that today 200 mile range on an electric vehicle means that for many uses it makes a perfect second vehicle. When we replace our sedan, assuming we still have our truck which is the long distance vehicle anyway, we are likely to go for an electric vehicle, or at least a hybrid.

Now when they get to the point you can get 250-300 miles of range out of an electric on the highway and a 30 minute recharge, which will happen, then the game IMHO changes.

In our travels we generally stop every 150-200 miles either for a snack or rest stop. So if during a rest stop you could charge for 15 minutes and get another 100 miles, or during a lunch dinner stop do a full recharge, it's a winner.

I always figure a gas stop takes 20-30 minutes on the road anyway, by the time you get on/off etc. Now if that could be don at a rest stop location with faster on/off it becomes a winner.

For towing, a hybrid 3/4 or 1 ton with regenerative braking, start stop technology would be a big improvement IMHO. Even if all it did was have a big enough battery to store energy from a 50mph stop. And maybe an option to store energy from a 1 mile 6 percent grade decent.