what are these components?

Hi Almot,

Well, some where in between?

I found out that because of the way I wired the Sola Basic, I can simply pop in a surge protector intended for a 15 amp outlet, and get some surge protection for everything down stream.

I do have one outlet that is in parallel to the input to the Sola so that is what I will use. It's not perfect--but it's better than a stick in your eye. It should offer the same or equal surge protection compared to the "big two", and I have little interest in their other features as I still manually check all outlets before I plug in.

Interestingly I was using such a device for the 120 volt fridge outlet and some time this spring it has finished its life cycle. So I have connected the replacement for the fridge unit to the Sola.

I did start a thread about that here:

http://forums.woodalls.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/28994236.cfm

Almot wrote:
So, Don, what's the decision - just using Sola and heck with that expensive surge?

So, Don, what's the decision - just using Sola and heck with that expensive surge?

Hi doug,

I didn't get the joke til just now. Old and slow I guess. LOL

dougrainer wrote:
I KNOW what they are:p Doug

SoundGuy wrote:
... company engineering staff would no doubt appreciate being enlightened by yourself on the errors of their ways in using MOVs for surge protection.

Progressive, MOV manufacturers and I are in total agreement. Sacrificial MOVs are an urban myth that even identifies one who is educated by hearsay. Who cannot and did not read MOV datasheets.

Progressive effectively identified which types of surges are relevant in the campground. Their protector is designed for such anomalies. Progressive protectors would be ineffective for surge protection of a home. Completely different anomalies require completely different solutions.

Sacrificial (catastrophic) failure is a fire threat. Some 15 million APC protectors must be removed immediately due to sacrificial failure and resulting fires. Many cruise ships now confiscate that protector from luggage. Cruise ships especially cannot risk fire created by sacrificial protector parts.

Effective protection is never from a sacrificial protector part. But many believe otherwise after spending massively on a grossly undersized protector - that suffered catastrophic failure.

Progressive successfully addresses other problematic surges in campgrounds. Please post using technical facts; not empty denials. Explain that box entitled "Absolute Maximum Parameters" that defines unacceptable (catastrophic) failure. Basic electrical knowledge is required.

Since low voltage is endemic in campgrounds in the summer, from air conditioner use, I don't understand why folks would not get the improved Hughes Autoformer instead of the Surge "energy management" devices that merely disconnect you at a voltage that may be low enough to already allow cumulative damage to occur.

dougrainer wrote:
I KNOW what they are:p Doug

SoundGuy wrote:
You'd be surprised ... many don't. :R

dougrainer wrote:
I was being funny. He just asked if we knew what they were, No other response was requested from him. Doug

I was being serious ;) but I guess you haven't yet figured out that on a PUBLIC forum replies are not necessarily directed at just one person :R, my point in this case being that a surprisingly large number of RV owners truly don't understand the differences between simple surge protectors and more fully featured electrical management systems such as the Progressive EMS units.

SoundGuy wrote:

dougrainer wrote:
I KNOW what they are:p Doug

You'd be surprised ... many don't. :R

I was being funny. He just asked if we knew what they were, No other response was requested from him. Doug

SoundGuy wrote:
Yes, the MOVs used for surge protection are considered sacrificial and can eventually fail if they sustain sufficient surges but in such a case all one needs to do is call Progressive and they will mail out by USPS a new MOV circuit board.

westom wrote:
Sacrificial MOVs violate MOV manufacturer datasheets. A sacrificial protector did not do protection. That catastrophic failure is completely unacceptable - considered a human safety threat. Normal failure mode for MOVs is degradation. That means MOVs still operate; but at voltages at least 10% from its original design.

Considering the massive success Progressive Industries has enjoyed with their series of EMS units, particularly the EMS-PT30C and EMS-PT50C, company engineering staff would no doubt appreciate being enlightened by yourself on the errors of their ways in using MOVs for surge protection. :R

MrWizard wrote:
Movs ... Are sacrificial Because they degrade , and eventfully fail completely

First, how does one know an MOV has degraded? Nothing (ie indicator light) reports it. An MOV manufacturer describes how to test MOVs for degradation.

The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse listed below is applied 10,000 times continuously with the interval of ten seconds at room temperature.

IOW MOVs must be removed and connected to complex electronic test equipment. Virtually no one will do that.

Second, MOVs must fail without any visual indication. That means it still works - but at a different voltage (Vb). MOV that stops working completely fails catastrophically - with visual indication. MOV datasheets are blunt. Catastrophic failure must not happen.

That indicator light only reports catastrophic failure. It clearly cannot report degradation.

Third, you are technically correct. High/low voltage and reverse polarity are not surges. What is called a surge (by engineers) is not a anomaly typically found in campgrounds. Marketing has its own interpretation for "surge".

Asus motherboards also have a completely different interpretation. A slightly low DC voltage is reported as a surge. USB port has another completely different definition. A 500+ milliamp current is a surge. How does any of this relate to a hundreds or thousand amp current mode spike that only lasts for microseconds? The word 'surge' is a subjective and ambiguous term when defined by marketing.

pianotuna wrote:
Would you care to elaborate on the difference between a protector used in homes versus the PI?

A PI will disconnect (or not connect) to the pole if voltage is too high (ie 140 volts) or too low (ie 80 volts).

A house protector has a let-through voltage of 330 volts. That means that 120 volt protector does nothing until voltage well exceeds 330 volts. It does no disconnecting.

A PI maintains a disconnection for as long as necessary (ie seconds or days).

A house protector is only designed for transients that a microseconds. Datasheets for those protector parts rate the device using a classic 8/20 microsecond transient.

A PI disconnects power if polarity is reversed. A house protector ignores polarity.

Above anomalies are examples of what is subjectively called a surge. Some may argue that many above examples are not surges. They would be correct - technically. But a technical definition is completely irrelevant to marketing's interpretation.

A PI is designed for common anomalies found in campgrounds. A house protector is designed for other anomalies typically problematic for homes.