Forum Discussion
54 Replies
- NC_HaulerExplorer
FishOnOne wrote:
ShinerBock wrote:
NC Hauler wrote:
Wow, I learn something new everyday...bummer is, I forget two old things everyday.
We ought to make the information given about all these tow ratings by ShinerBoch a sticky"....It's amazing someone has amassed all this infomation in such clarity and it's 100% factual...Defintiley insider information that everyone should know and realize just how far Ford is ahead of the curve and realize just how high their standards are compared to eveyone else. Just never heard of someone "loweing the bar" to meet a certain criterium...Got to admit, it's a new one on me.
GOT TO MAKE THIS A STICKY: Highly informative and 100% factual....
Sorry, I forgot to answer that portion of your question as to why Ford is posting the numbers of the J2807 instead of their own standards. One word.... marketing. They know Ram( in this case) will post a tow rating going by the lower standard J2807 tow rating which will give them the marketing right to say the stupid "best in class" slogan which due to US advertising laws you cannot say it unless it were true(in some way). So what is Ford to do? Either stick with its standards that give them lower rating that is more reasonable or go by the J2807 which their competitor is using to give them higher numbers for marketing purposes. I think they chose poorly in my opinion by jumping into this "best in class" circle jerk. All it is is a pissing contest set by lower standards just so each can lawfully market that they are "best in class" and their bone headed fanboy followers of each brand can brag about some number even though it is set by a lower standard. Nothing more.
We do get one particular person here that likes to tout the SAE J2807 (and a few followers as well) and I don't think he has a clue to what he's regurgitating.
Seeing as how I NEVER tout the SAEJ2807 numbers, know very little about them, and only reference them when others do...I have no clue who you're referring to, but see you quoted some of "my" post...And as usual, for you, stalking me yet again and going out of your way to post ugly, rude remarks about people you don't even know, insulting their intelligence as though you are some kind of genius yourself.... I guess the only way you can overcome your inadequacies is by posting ugly, rude remarks about others...Something I haven't done to you since I found out you were following me from forum to forum..stalking others and going out of one's way to say rude, ugly things about them is unbecoming no matter how smart you "think" you are....
you need to block more people out to where the only one's you can read are just the one's that agree with you on everything and then you would be in paradise..... ShinerBock wrote:
NC Hauler wrote:
Wow, I learn something new everyday...bummer is, I forget two old things everyday.
We ought to make the information given about all these tow ratings by ShinerBoch a sticky"....It's amazing someone has amassed all this infomation in such clarity and it's 100% factual...Defintiley insider information that everyone should know and realize just how far Ford is ahead of the curve and realize just how high their standards are compared to eveyone else. Just never heard of someone "loweing the bar" to meet a certain criterium...Got to admit, it's a new one on me.
GOT TO MAKE THIS A STICKY: Highly informative and 100% factual....
Sorry, I forgot to answer that portion of your question as to why Ford is posting the numbers of the J2807 instead of their own standards. One word.... marketing. They know Ram( in this case) will post a tow rating going by the lower standard J2807 tow rating which will give them the marketing right to say the stupid "best in class" slogan which due to US advertising laws you cannot say it unless it were true(in some way). So what is Ford to do? Either stick with its standards that give them lower rating that is more reasonable or go by the J2807 which their competitor is using to give them higher numbers for marketing purposes. I think they chose poorly in my opinion by jumping into this "best in class" circle jerk. All it is is a pissing contest set by lower standards just so each can lawfully market that they are "best in class" and their bone headed fanboy followers of each brand can brag about some number even though it is set by a lower standard. Nothing more.
We do get one particular person here that likes to tout the SAE J2807 (and a few followers as well) and I don't think he has a clue to what he's regurgitating.- jerem0621Explorer IIThanks for posting IB...
- ShinerBockExplorer
NC Hauler wrote:
..Don't know much about Ford...owned Chevy trucks from 1975 thru June of 2010...great trucks...somehow ended up with a 2010 Ram 3500 Cummins Dually and been hooked...Sounds like Ford has the "other 2" right where they want them....Oh well, I'll go with the #3 Ram...as I stated at the start of this thread..if I wanted to be first to the top of the mountain,I'd went with a Chevy D/A combo...and my trucks under the "old ratings" anyway, being a 13' model...only has a GCWR of 37,500# and a GVWR of 14,000#...so it's not under the new ratings system...but it'll do what I need it to.:)
My point is not to say one brand is better than the rest. After all I own a Ram 2500 and an F150. Although owning the Ram has to do with my loyalty to my old employer(Cummins) and the fact that I know that engine like the back of my hand. I also get less expensive parts than others would get or then I would get going with anything other than a Cummins. My main point is this whole e-peen competition just for the right to be able to say they are "best in class" is senseless. I believe all the current DRW trucks are capable of towing in the 20k to around 25k range within acceptable ranges which is where 99.9999% of the owners of DRW are probably towing or less so why lower standards just to say you can tow more is beyond me.
EDIT: I just found out that TFL just posted the F350 Ike Gauntlet video towing the same trailer. TFL Truck 2015 F350 Ike Gauntlet - NC_HaulerExplorer..Don't know much about Ford...owned Chevy trucks from 1975 thru June of 2010...great trucks...somehow ended up with a 2010 Ram 3500 Cummins Dually and been hooked...Sounds like Ford has the "other 2" right where they want them....Oh well, I'll go with the #3 Ram...as I stated at the start of this thread..if I wanted to be first to the top of the mountain,I'd went with a Chevy D/A combo...and my trucks under the "old ratings" anyway, being a 13' model...only has a GCWR of 37,500# and a GVWR of 14,000#...so it's not under the new ratings system...but it'll do what I need it to.:)
- ShinerBockExplorer
NC Hauler wrote:
Wow, I learn something new everyday...bummer is, I forget two old things everyday.
We ought to make the information given about all these tow ratings by ShinerBoch a sticky"....It's amazing someone has amassed all this infomation in such clarity and it's 100% factual...Defintiley insider information that everyone should know and realize just how far Ford is ahead of the curve and realize just how high their standards are compared to eveyone else. Just never heard of someone "loweing the bar" to meet a certain criterium...Got to admit, it's a new one on me.
GOT TO MAKE THIS A STICKY: Highly informative and 100% factual....
Sorry, I forgot to answer that portion of your question as to why Ford is posting the numbers of the J2807 instead of their own standards. One word.... marketing. They know Ram( in this case) will post a tow rating going by the lower standard J2807 tow rating which will give them the marketing right to say the stupid "best in class" slogan which due to US advertising laws you cannot say it unless it were true(in some way). So what is Ford to do? Either stick with its standards that give them lower rating that is more reasonable or go by the J2807 which their competitor is using to give them higher numbers for marketing purposes. I think they chose poorly in my opinion by jumping into this "best in class" circle jerk. All it is is a pissing contest set by lower standards just so each can lawfully market that they are "best in class" and their bone headed fanboy followers of each brand can brag about some number even though it is set by a lower standard. Nothing more. - NC_HaulerExplorerWow, I learn something new everyday...bummer is, I forget two old things everyday.
We ought to make the information given about all these tow ratings by ShinerBoch a sticky"....It's amazing someone has amassed all this infomation in such clarity and it's 100% factual...Defintiley insider information that everyone should know and realize just how far Ford is ahead of the curve and realize just how high their standards are compared to eveyone else. Just never heard of someone "loweing the bar" to meet a certain criterium...Got to admit, it's a new one on me.
GOT TO MAKE THIS A STICKY: Highly informative and 100% factual.... - ShinerBockExplorer
NC Hauler wrote:
How do you KNOW, FOR FACT that Fords towing standards were ACTUALLY HIGHER than the J2807 standards?....so Ford HAD to LOWER their standards to meet J2807:h..So then, Ford LOWERED it's towing standards, THUS, RAISING their tow rating:h You must be a super insider to have this information....WOW...lowering one's "standards" to comply with a higher type tow rating...I got to admit, I'm impressed....I don't think GM or Ram actually had to LOWER their standards to meet J2807...in fact, they kept doing what they were doing and their tow ratings ALSO went up using the standards already in place...:h
Yes, it is true. Fords speed limit and stopping standards(which they updated in 2011) were higher than the J2807 which is why their tow ratings are lower than the J2807. This is why you see an increase in tow rating for almost all of their trucks going to the new standard.
I don't know what GMs standards were before the J2807, but when GM complied their ratings went down on many of their trucks. The very same truck that they rated to tow 10,000 lbs in 2014 was lowered to tow less in 2015.
I don't know what Rams standards were before either, but Rams case was a bit different as far as tow rating year to year. Knowing that the J2807 was coming since 2011, they gradually started to lower tow ratings each year for certain vehicles while also improving the trucks either by adding more gears to their transmission, adding more power to their engines, or adding new more powerful engines all together. Essentially in some cases a less powerful Ram 1500 in 2010 was rated to tow the same as the new 2014 Ram 1500 with a more powerful engine and more gears in the transmission. In other cases they gradually lowered tow ratings(or raised in some cases) since 2011 each year until 2014 just so they can say that they didn't have to lower any ratings when applying the J2807 in 2015. Don't believe me, take a look at each years tow rating and truck improvements for yourself in the Ram Bodybuilder.NC Hauler wrote:
Guess being an old Engineer I don't understand this....but do feel enlightened at this point on just how good Fords standards are....I'm impressed to say the least....But with such high standards, why would Ford lower theirs to comply with J2807??? Would think if one's standards were higher, they would meet minimum requirements easily and exceed them working with higher standards in place already....
man, my head hurt's...I'm going to take a nap.:)
Yes, Ford had a higher speed limit standard when towing than the speed limits in the J2807. By having a higher speed limit requirement, it meant that they tow ratings were lower than the J2807. Let me put it in a different way to make it easier.
Lets say Fords requirement for towing was that it had to be able to go up Davis Dam(which Ford has been using as a standard long before J2807) at a minimum speed of 55 mph. Lets say they test their F150 towing 12,000 lbs, but it is only able to do it going up at a minimum of 45 mph. This means they have to lower the amount that it is towing. So now they lower the amount the F150 to 11,000 lbs to run the test again, and it is able to keep within the minimum of 55 mph going by their standard so that is its rating for that section of their tests.
Now with the J2807, the speed limit is set to a minimum of 40 mph. This means that Ford can now add more weight to the tow ratings while still being within the new lower J2807 minimum speed requirement for that section of the standard so you have a higher tow rating. Raising the minimum speed requirement will give you a lower tow rating and lowering the speed requirement will give you a higher tow rating depending how the truck does in the other tests.
That is how they do these tests. They keep adding or subtracting weight to see what each truck will do meeting the test requirements. The lowest weight in all the tests is the tow rating. You may have a truck that is able to easily do the acceleration portion of the test with a 30,000 lb trailer, but can only do the brake portion of the test with a 25,000 lb trailer. In that case since the 25,000 lbs is the lowest then that is its ratings. This is why I said lowering the standards will raise tow ratings while raising the standards decreases tow ratings. - NC_HaulerExplorer
ShinerBock wrote:
jus2shy wrote:
You have to agree that J2807 is a start. It's better than having in-house standards that are ambiguous at best among all truck makers. Totally unknown at worst. However, as with all things in life, there is room for improvement.
I know for a fact that some manufacturers in house standards, like Fords, were actually higher than the J2807 standards. Complying with J2807 actually lowered their standards which raised their tow ratings. The only major issue I have is that this J2807 is giving people a false sense of safety when the J2807 has nothing to do with safety. People think that just because a vehicle is J2807 rated to tow X amount then it can safely do so when the J2807 does not test for towing safety, it is only a universal standard of testing procedures.jus2shy wrote:
I think all 3 trucks are mighty competent at 21,000 lbs for the duallies.
I will agree that these trucks towing 20k-24k seem more reasonable and think that that is where their max should be.jus2shy wrote:
They even did the Ford and RAM at full load. I'm sure the Super Duty would hold a higher speed with 40 more horsepower on tap in 2015. The 2015+ Super Duty also has a much better exhaust brake setup.
Yeah I saw that although they were towing 22.6k and no where near 30k since that was before J2807 ratings and they were rated to tow less. After J2807 those trucks are rated to tow 30k. They did add another 3,800 lbs to that 22.6k trailer the Ram was towing since Ram gave it a 4,000 lbs higher tow rating that the Ford gave that F450 at the time. With a 26k trailer, they said that Ram did a top speed of 48 mph and the slowest of 28 mph. Now imagine adding another 4,000 lbs to that with the new J2807 standard ratings.
How do you KNOW, FOR FACT that Fords towing standards were ACTUALLY HIGHER than the J2807 standards?....so Ford HAD to LOWER their standards to meet J2807:h..So then, Ford LOWERED it's towing standards, THUS, RAISING their tow rating:h You must be a super insider to have this information....WOW...lowering one's "standards" to comply with a higher type tow rating...I got to admit, I'm impressed....I don't think GM or Ram actually had to LOWER their standards to meet J2807...in fact, they kept doing what they were doing and their tow ratings ALSO went up using the standards already in place...:h
Guess being an old Engineer I don't understand this....but do feel enlightened at this point on just how good Fords standards are....I'm impressed to say the least....But with such high standards, why would Ford lower theirs to comply with J2807??? Would think if one's standards were higher, they would meet minimum requirements easily and exceed them working with higher standards in place already....
man, my head hurt's...I'm going to take a nap.:) - ShinerBockExplorer
Bionic Man wrote:
Shiner, may I suggest that you start a separate thread about the tow ratings?
Oh so now you have the bally wallys to post something referencing me and actually saying my name. Thanks for the suggestion but I think I will pass.
After all, I am discussing the tow test standards used to set the ratings of the Ram truck in the video(which is towing something) so it is not necessarily off topic.
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