Are gas engines ever going to catch up?

Me Again wrote:
More big gas engines. Chris

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Chris, did you see the burn rate? Over a gallon a minute at cruise. :E If I remember right I think it was over 3 gallons a minute for emergency speed (WOT). :E

No wonder the Germans went with diesel in most of there stuff. :B

More big gas engines. Chris

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parkersdad wrote:

My guess would be government regulations. They probably will not meet the standards therefore they cannot be put in trucks. Just a guess though.

For sure! My dad drove a Diamond T truck with a 450ci Red Diamond International I-6 and they replaced it with the larger 501ci I-6.

There were lots of large gas engines years ago.

83' USCG Cutters had:

Sterling Viking II, Model TCG-8

Made by Sterling Engine Company, Buffalo, New York

The 83 footer was twin screw cutter. Each gasoline engine was an in-line eight cylinder, four stroke (cycle) with eight inch bore, nine inch stroke, a displacement of 3619.1 cubic inches, and developed 600 HP @ 1,200 RPM. 60 GPH per engine at 18.5 Knots!

Me Again wrote:

06Fargo wrote:


Hi Hannibal - my fuel math is likely faulty - I take my diesel mpg towing of 10-12mpg x .8 for 20% cheaper gas pump price vs diesel pump price = 8-9.5mpg gasoline equivalent. Are there 1 ton gas engine pickups available that will tow at 22,999lbs truck and trailer GCW and deliver 8mpg? It seems to me there might be, because I see motorhome owners posting that kind of gas mpg with gas engine class A chassis.

BUT BUT! RAM, Ford and Chevy quit putting those higher cu in motors in pickups, for smaller high strung ones!

Just where is the 8.3L V-10 Hemi? Chris

My guess would be government regulations. They probably will not meet the standards therefore they cannot be put in trucks. Just a guess though.

06Fargo wrote:


Hi Hannibal - my fuel math is likely faulty - I take my diesel mpg towing of 10-12mpg x .8 for 20% cheaper gas pump price vs diesel pump price = 8-9.5mpg gasoline equivalent. Are there 1 ton gas engine pickups available that will tow at 22,999lbs truck and trailer GCW and deliver 8mpg? It seems to me there might be, because I see motorhome owners posting that kind of gas mpg with gas engine class A chassis.

BUT BUT! RAM, Ford and Chevy quit putting those higher cu in motors in pickups, for smaller high strung ones!

Just where is the 8.3L V-10 Hemi?

Ford use to have this 534 ci commercial truck gas V-8. Chris

Hannibal wrote:

06Fargo wrote:

jerem0621 wrote:
Nope, gas engines will never catch up to the expense of repairs compared to a diesel.

:D

I agree totally with the above often posted blanket smug-mug statement. Diesel engine/systems repair = expensive.

Now factor in 1/2 the fuel mpg over 100,000 miles working the truck at near capacity 1/2 the time. How does the math look now? $7000 in favor of the diesel?

OMG what if neither truck needed any repair in 100,000 miles which is totally possible?

But would the gas truck be more or less "wore out" than the diesel and have depreciated more or less per month?

gotta go here comes my therapist... :E

Half the mpg? I never saw better than 20% higher fuel mileage with my diesels. If it were 50%, I'd still own one.:h

Hi Hannibal - my fuel math is likely faulty - I take my diesel mpg towing of 10-12mpg x .8 for 20% cheaper gas pump price vs diesel pump price = 8-9.5mpg gasoline equivalent. Are there 1 ton gas engine pickups available that will tow at 22,999lbs truck and trailer GCW and deliver 8mpg? It seems to me there might be, because I see motorhome owners posting that kind of gas mpg with gas engine class A chassis.

jerem0621 wrote:
.we have a hobby that is relatively expensive no matter our choice...gas vs diesel is just part of the debate.


Jeremiah

No doubt. That made me laugh!! I have a 24,000 dollar trailer that I use at most 60 days a year, more if relatives come to stay and an 02 Silverado 2500 HD with 35,000 miles, paid for now, but the only reason I have it is to tow the trailer. I do not drive it unless the Trans Am and the Grand Prix are broke. Has never happened. I hate driving a truck. I am not a truck guy.

I don't know, probably not. I know you can make a reliable turbo charged LSx that will live a long time, but you are not going to get that from the manufacturer, you have to do it on your own.

Having said that. I have to ask why the concern about running a Gasser at 4000 to 5000 rpm? I have been in diesel that will run at close to their max RPM pulling some grades. They have a heavier rotating mass. Seems to me high rpm is high rpm, each engine is designed to run like that.

As far at towing efficiently? Not a concern of mine. I am pumping some sort of go juice no matter what I drive. How I get 400 hp and 600 ft/lbs of torque doesn't matter to me as much as how well the thing tows and how long it will live.

I have had 4 different S/C cars and 7 different turbo cars. A bunch of those were mids to early 90's Mopars. All have them have lived a long time with proper maintenance even when running lots of boost, none towing of course, but all my 3800 S/C cars are pretty efficient for size vs MPGs. The Mopar stuff? Not so much. The turbo LSx I owned did very good. I think it would have worked well in my truck.

Again having said all of that. I move 7500 with 300 hp and 365 ft/lbs of torque just fine. I just have to make sure I hit the gas station every 220 to 240 miles. :)
I buy what I can fix easily and what I am comfortable with.

Good gravy Wes, the writers background that wrote that article is in photography and writing!!
No engineering at all. Nothing. No thermal dynamic's background. Nothing. He's a photographer not an engineer!! His only auto background is he owns some cars with different cylinder combo's and different drive combinations and likes to play with their electronics. LOL It would be like me writing about music because I own several CD's. :R LOL


Here is what Holley ENGINEERS say about turbo BSFC.


Build your turbo or N/A engine here. See if the injectors they recommend are a lower flow rate for the turbo engine or N/A engine. Check it out.


Another fuel injection site that says trubo's have a higher BSFC. See what their engineers say on what size injector to pick.


Anther turbo site that talks about BSFC figures. Check it out.


Another site that talks about turbo BSFC.

All of these companies and 100's more have engineers that know this stuff inside and out. They all have people with engineering backgrounds. All of them.

Now, what are the chances that all of these companies engineers (and more) don't have a clue on what their talking about and the photographer and writer guy that you linked to does? Come on, the answer is 0 and you and I both know it.

There are pluses and an minuses for turbo engines. The plus is they can make a lot of power way down low with a very small engine.

The minus is they sap a lot of power when out of boost mode because the turbin clogs up the exhaust when in cruise mode. The only reason the Ecoboost can be so efficient is because it's is such a small engine when unboosted. Even then it can only barely, and I do mean barely, beat out MOST mid size V8's for fuel mileage.

Here is a V8 N/A that has better mileage and close to the same HP.

I have driven and built turbo and supercharged engines for over 30 years and let me tell you, they are inefficient when out of boost. It's physics. They are not too bad when in boost, but they take fuel to cool them off. Even as advanced as the Ecoboost is, it uses fuel to cool things off just like I do now and did 30 years ago.

What % of the time was I in boost on the street? About 3 to 5% so that makes for a not so efficient engine most of the time. Mine was a turbo V8 so it sucked fuel no matter what I was doing.

I'm not knocking turbo's. I love them obviously and know all about there attractions and detractions! As a side note, I always chuckle when people here ask for a 500 HP turbo gasoline V8 for towing. They have no clue what asking for or what they will get if it ever happens. :B

parkersdad wrote:

RinconVTR wrote:

parkersdad wrote:
You don't see 18 wheelers with gas motors. That tells me all I need to know

Not comparable unless you're driving the same number of miles or running the same working hours.

Personally, I trust test done by these guys at The Fast Lane Truck (and Car) because they test on the same highway using the same tools, consistently. Unlike people on forums. Watch some of the real low diesel MPG numbers going up "the gauntlet" and how they tow vs gas motors. They all do fine, but clearly some are better than others.

http://www.tfltruck.com/

http://www.tflcar.com/tag/towing/

It is comparable because I do most of my towing in the mountains. And if you watch those towing tests you speak of the diesels have 18,000 pounds behind them and the gas motors 10,000

Both pulling near what they are rated for.

Should they instead both pull a 60k tractor trailer?
Or should a semi tractor pull a 10k trailer to be fair?
Neither is built to pull either.

If you're trying to equate weight directly with MPG, well I guess semi's would be in the negative numbers. Reality is, they do 5-6mpg all day long pulling enormous weights. Steep grades is about half that, which is not far off from some of those pick-ups seeing 3-4mpg up the grade, is it?

Also take note of RPM's in those videos. Pulling up grades puts every engine within HP peaks, not torque. So that neck snapping 700lb/ft+ at 1600ish RPM isn't helping much when its spinning at 3000rpm up the mountain.

Same with big rigs...they make 1000lb/ft+ of torque at very low RPM, while HP numbers are not very impressive. At speed, HP gets you up that grade.

Look up other towing tests those guys have done, such as the new 2014 Grand Cherokee with EcoDiesel. It's a slow old dog on the road!

To each their own, and I'll stick with gas. I cant stand the smell of diesel nor do I want the trouble of winter fuel gelling and high maintenance costs of all the extremes now required to pass EPA regs. (Look it up...ITS INSANE and big $$$$!!!)

During this cold-cold winter, I lost count how many new cars and truck owners I know who had gelling issues because one or more stations didn't have anti-gel additive in their tanks. So now these owners are buying extra additive themselves Fall thru Spring...but only after a costly drain and refill of their fuel system at the dealer. Have fun with those diesels...I'm staying FAR-FAR away.