Are You Buying All These Half-ton Claims?

brulaz wrote:
1) Heavier vehicles are safer than lighter ones. My insurance company charges me more insurance for the little Cruze than the F150 because of the increased possiblity of disability, etc.

Is that what your insurance company told you, or is that what you are assuming?

My base model 2009 Chevy Cobalt costs more to insure than my loaded 2013 Dodge Grand Caravan, and it has nothing to do with the vehicle weight. My insurance company said it is because very young people drive Cobalts and get into more wrecks, and older people drive Grand Caravans.

I disagree with the weight comment. It may be partially true, but it sounds too much like a blanket statement. There are many factors involved.

Then there's the guy that comes on here who switched from a 1/2 to a 3/4 ton and says " what a difference". No ones saying you can't tow a TT with a 1/2 ton. But when it's at it's upper limits a 3/4 ton makes more sense. It's just a matter of physics. An 8-9000lb TT isn't going to move a heavier, stiffly sprung 3/4 ton truck around as easy as it would with softer sprung P Rated tire /2 ton. BTDT with a 7300lb 31' TT. I've towed the same TT with both and the 3/4 ton wins hands down.
1/2 ton had a max tow of 11,300 and my current 3/4 ton has 12,500. Big difference is in the suspension, frame, tires and brakes.

You guys arguing over which vehicle is safer have missed the mark.

The biggest difference maker in vehicle safety is THE DRIVER.

I take them at their word. I guess I went the opposite direction from most -- towed with an '06 2500hd diesel, and switched to an F150 Ecoboost (not even max tow, just "regular" tow). (Happy to explain the switch if anyone cares). My TT weighs about 6500# loaded to camp.

Now, am I saying the F150 could out-tow the 3/4 ton? No, not at all. And admittedly, I was well below the 3/4 ton's ratings in all respect (around 50% capacity, actually), so it isn't a fair comparison in that respect. That clarified, the F150 does the job of towing my TT "just about" as well as the 2500hd did, even right at its max payload and about 3000# under max cgvwr. No pitching, no swaying, no bouncing, nothing feeling unsafe or uncertain about the whole experience. Yes, I suppose I can "feel" the trailer back there a little more, but nothing disconcerting in the least.

I'm sure the experience wouldn't be the same if I were hitched up to 10k lbs, or probably even 8k, as that would put me above many of my F150's ratings. But my real world experience is that when used within the ratings, the newer 1/2 tons do what they are claimed to do.

spoon059 wrote:

fx2tom wrote:
Don't take my words out of context, there is a huge difference between towing relaxed (maybe not quite the right word) and driving recklessly. I have towed everything from 12 ft landscape trailers to 40 ft fifth wheel toy hauler in a 3500 CTD. I can tell you that there is a difference in towing with a half ton and 8300 lb trailer and a 3/4 ton with the same trailer. I would actually say that me driving in the 3/4 is safer because I am not constantly nervous with every bit of sway I feel from cross winds.

I don't believe I took a single word out of context.

I tow with a half ton truck. I have never once had ANY sway or felt out of control at all. I have my WDH set up correctly. I have E rated tires. My Tundra is set up appropriately to tow my rig. My rig is within Toyota's specs. My rig is completely safe to tow, despite it being a half ton truck.

Read my post again... I stated that if you don't have things properly set up in a half ton and simply move to a 3/4 ton and don't have things properly set up than you are just temporarily masking the problems. If you don't have our sway control set up properly, when you get a big gust of wind it is going to cause you problems... whether or not its a 3/4 ton truck.

There are a LOT of variables into making a tow rig unsafe. A dumbass can find a way to unsafely tow a 1,000 lbs trailer with a dually Ram.

No, you did take them out of context by implying that a driver towing relaxed is driving recklessly.

You are towing with a 1/2 ton truck and a 25 ft trailer. That is not the equivalent to towing something 11 feet longer.

Towing with a 3/4 ton makes me more comfortable. There was absolutely nothing wrong with my equal-izer set up. The one part we do agree on is that an idiot can screw up towing regardless of TV.

fx2tom wrote:
Don't take my words out of context, there is a huge difference between towing relaxed (maybe not quite the right word) and driving recklessly. I have towed everything from 12 ft landscape trailers to 40 ft fifth wheel toy hauler in a 3500 CTD. I can tell you that there is a difference in towing with a half ton and 8300 lb trailer and a 3/4 ton with the same trailer. I would actually say that me driving in the 3/4 is safer because I am not constantly nervous with every bit of sway I feel from cross winds.

I don't believe I took a single word out of context.

I tow with a half ton truck. I have never once had ANY sway or felt out of control at all. I have my WDH set up correctly. I have E rated tires. My Tundra is set up appropriately to tow my rig. My rig is within Toyota's specs. My rig is completely safe to tow, despite it being a half ton truck.

Read my post again... I stated that if you don't have things properly set up in a half ton and simply move to a 3/4 ton and don't have things properly set up than you are just temporarily masking the problems. If you don't have our sway control set up properly, when you get a big gust of wind it is going to cause you problems... whether or not its a 3/4 ton truck.

There are a LOT of variables into making a tow rig unsafe. A dumbass can find a way to unsafely tow a 1,000 lbs trailer with a dually Ram.

brulaz wrote:
A few more logs for the fire:

1) Heavier vehicles are safer than lighter ones. My insurance company charges me more insurance for the little Cruze than the F150 because of the increased possiblity of disability, etc.

So a heavier larger 10K GVWR truck should be a bit safer than my 7.5K GVWR F150, as long as they are both loaded under the manufacturer's ratings. Not as big a difference as between the Cruze and either truck. Not enough difference for me to choose the bigger truck for safety reasons. After all, much of our driving is still in the Cruze.

2) Running any truck fully loaded will certainly wear it out faster. And older, even well-maintained older trucks, are less reliable and prone to break-downs. This may lead to safety issues. But at what point is the truck unsafe? A lightly used truck may last 200K or more. A heavily used truck only 150K? The unsafe part doesn't happen immediately. It takes awhile, and you can't just say that a fully loaded truck is immediately unsafe for this reason.

And a worn-out HD truck is probably just as unsafe as a worn-out light duty truck (except for the weight/safety issue above).

3) Is an empty or half-loaded truck safer than when it's fully loaded? Maybe slightly, there may be some small increased probability for component failure, but, according to the manufacturers, you are good-to-go as long as we stay within the weight limits. Do we believe the manufacturers? Uh ... no, I don't. At least not for 150/1500s.

4) Despite their weight ratings, 150/1500 trucks have suspension/tires designed for grocery-getting and commuting. The only exceptions I know of are the F150's HD Payload option and some Off-Road options that include LT tires and HD shocks. When carrying a full load, IMHO, regular 150/1500 trucks need their suspension and tires toughened up. In my experience it creates a much more "stable platform" for tow/hauling up to the max ratings. And I believe this increases the safety of the truck.

The HD duty trucks seem to be designed to carry their max loads from the get-go, although you do hear of people using airbags and other suspension mods with them, so I really don't know.


Summary?

I believe I'm endangering my family much more by going for a ride in my Cruze than in driving my fully loaded (but suspension modified) F150.

I don't doubt that a partially (or even fully) loaded HD truck would be safer, but relative to the other risks we are taking (like driving in the Cruze), not that much safer.

I was surprised to find that going from the F150 to the 2500 cost me a whopping $36 more a year to insure. I am sure I'll be *****ing and moaning when my registration comes from the good ole State of California but that just part of the cost for me.

A few more logs for the fire:

1) Heavier vehicles are safer than lighter ones. My insurance company charges me more insurance for the little Cruze than the F150 because of the increased possiblity of disability, etc.

So a heavier larger 10K GVWR truck should be a bit safer than my 7.5K GVWR F150, as long as they are both loaded under the manufacturer's ratings. Not as big a difference as between the Cruze and either truck. Not enough difference for me to choose the bigger truck for safety reasons. After all, much of our driving is still in the Cruze.

2) Running any truck fully loaded will certainly wear it out faster. And older, even well-maintained older trucks, are less reliable and prone to break-downs. This may lead to safety issues. But at what point is the truck unsafe? A lightly used truck may last 200K or more. A heavily used truck only 150K? The unsafe part doesn't happen immediately. It takes awhile, and you can't just say that a fully loaded truck is immediately unsafe for this reason.

And a worn-out HD truck is probably just as unsafe as a worn-out light duty truck (except for the weight/safety issue above).

3) Is an empty or half-loaded truck safer than when it's fully loaded? Maybe slightly, there may be some small increased probability for component failure, but, according to the manufacturers, you are good-to-go as long as we stay within the weight limits. Do we believe the manufacturers? Uh ... no, I don't. At least not for 150/1500s.

4) Despite their weight ratings, 150/1500 trucks have suspension/tires designed for grocery-getting and commuting. The only exceptions I know of are the F150's HD Payload option and some Off-Road options that include LT tires and HD shocks. When carrying a full load, IMHO, regular 150/1500 trucks need their suspension and tires toughened up. In my experience it creates a much more "stable platform" for tow/hauling up to the max ratings. And I believe this increases the safety of the truck.

The HD duty trucks seem to be designed to carry their max loads from the get-go, although you do hear of people using airbags and other suspension mods with them, so I really don't know.


Summary?

I believe I'm endangering my family much more by going for a ride in my Cruze than in driving my fully loaded (but suspension modified) F150.

I don't doubt that a partially (or even fully) loaded HD truck would be safer, but relative to the other risks we are taking (like driving in the Cruze), not that much safer.

spoon059 wrote:

CKNSLS wrote:
Generally one is new and starts out with a half ton truck and is learning about proper towing equipment and how to PROPERLY adjust a WD hitch. ITS ABOUT THE HITCH. Its about the RV dealer not setting up the hitch correctly the first time. To say a half ton truck is the issue is simplistic and quite frankly false.

Exactly. Someone who doesn't know how to drive, doesn't have the right equipment, isn't set up properly and has never towed before is crying because of all of that.

None of that means that the half ton is unsafe or overloaded or on the verge of breaking... it just means that the guy towing doesn't know what he is doing.

Now that he gets into his 3/4 ton truck, still with no experience, he falsely believes that he is safer and he can "relax" more. Its people like this that scare me. They drive faster, drive closer, drive distracted and drive with arrogance... but they still don't know what they are doing. The "solid platform" of a heavier truck masks whatever problems were there before. The trailer still has sway from the incorrectly set up WDH, but the driver doesn't feel it as much because of the heavier dog not getting wagged by the tail.

I can drive. I can tow. I know the limits of my tow vehicle, and I keep my weights below Toyota's stated threshold. My WDH is properly set up, I have sufficient tongue weight. I have E rated tires and my trailer brakes are properly adjusted. I tow safely and watch the car ahead of me and ahead of him. I try to drive in the right lane so I have the shoulder incase of an emergency. I always keep track of vehicles next to me and approaching from behind. I don't talk on the phone, don't eat while driving and try to limit any possible distractions while driving. My bride handles navigation and plans out our stops and next destinations. I have never had a close encounter, because I am aware.

Putting some idiot in a 3/4 or 1 ton with all the problems he had in his half ton doesn't make him safe. Having that same idiot yacking on his phone, not aware of the length of his rig, eating while driving, distracted, unaware of road conditions, etc etc is NOT safer.

Don't take my words out of context, there is a huge difference between towing relaxed (maybe not quite the right word) and driving recklessly. I have towed everything from 12 ft landscape trailers to 40 ft fifth wheel toy hauler in a 3500 CTD. I can tell you that there is a difference in towing with a half ton and 8300 lb trailer and a 3/4 ton with the same trailer. I would actually say that me driving in the 3/4 is safer because I am not constantly nervous with every bit of sway I feel from cross winds.

But you can load that airplane within it's maximum specs (takeoff weight) and safely get it in the air and flying.