Diesel engines why not more available in smaller vehicles ?

jerem0621 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

jerem0621 wrote:
Infrastructure, image, and the deeply engrained gasoline culture.

Diesel Never will be super popular in the USA for cars unless a quantum shift happens in perception, regulations, and the culture.

Right now the focus is on electric with complicated, short life span, and very expensive lithium ion batteries. (Never mind how dangerous they can be).

Thanks!

Jeremiah

Howdy. Define short lifespan and dangerous for electric vehicles. Curious.

Sure, the li-on batteries start to degrade after a short amount of time. Never mind that there is varying chemistry in a li-on cells making it nearly impossible to really gauge battery for battery.

I believe that the EV battery is typically due for a replacement at the 8 year mark. Yes I know that the battery is not an engine but it will cost nearly what an engine replacement will cost on an ICE if not more. (It out of warranty)

What this means in the real world for a EV like the Leaf was a rapid battery degradation rate at nearly 30% in 2-3 years for a LOT of users.

IIRC a term we need to get familiar with is Coulombic Efficiency which is the completeness of electron transfer in batteries. (Batteries specifically, can be applied elsewhere....iirc). We also need to get familiar with mechanical degradation as well. There are physical parts in a battery that just stop working correctly over time.

Anyway, I’m summary...li-on batteries degrade pretty quick for real world use, are getting better as the technology progresses.

Dangerous for three reason.

1) sourcing the raw materials, in some places is very dangerous and involves kids and other human decency issues (specifically cobalt mining)

2) there is an underground group of Tesla/EV home builders purchasing up all the wrecked and flooded Tesla’s (specifically) from Copart and other salvage auction sites. These batteries are being disassembled and the cells being sold on the internet via facebooks groups and other buy sell sites. Think about that for a minute. I’m afraid that someone is going to get crushed (under a battery) at home, electrocuted, or covered in the electrolyte from a damaged battery.

3) to a much lesser extent, home tinkerers like me need to be aware that any electrical cable colored in orange is a high voltage cable for an EV. This is universal for all EV’s.

As a sub note Tesla blacklists any car that it finds out is totaled. What this means is that you can’t purchase major components for the car from Tesla or charge the car on the SuperCharger network Tesla owns. This is why there is a whole sub-Cultire iof part swaps for Tesla builders.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

Interesting stuff. I have also read about some Leaf owners with first generatiin leafs losing 30 percent within a few years but from what I gather this seems prevalent only in high heat environments like arizona. We have probably only lost a few percent on ours in a couple years (hard to tell) but most of the year is not that hot where we live. Our other EV (mercedes smart car) has lost almost nothing in three years. I have read that some Tesla owners are seeing greater than 90 percent capacity with 1/4 million miles do I suppose it depends on the enviroment they are running in.

Interesting info on the aftermarket battery action though. I had no idea.

John & Angela wrote:

jerem0621 wrote:
Infrastructure, image, and the deeply engrained gasoline culture.

Diesel Never will be super popular in the USA for cars unless a quantum shift happens in perception, regulations, and the culture.

Right now the focus is on electric with complicated, short life span, and very expensive lithium ion batteries. (Never mind how dangerous they can be).

Thanks!

Jeremiah

Howdy. Define short lifespan and dangerous for electric vehicles. Curious.

Sure, the li-on batteries start to degrade after a short amount of time. Never mind that there is varying chemistry in a li-on cells making it nearly impossible to really gauge battery for battery.

I believe that the EV battery is typically due for a replacement at the 8 year mark. Yes I know that the battery is not an engine but it will cost nearly what an engine replacement will cost on an ICE if not more. (It out of warranty)

What this means in the real world for a EV like the Leaf was a rapid battery degradation rate at nearly 30% in 2-3 years for a LOT of users.

IIRC a term we need to get familiar with is Coulombic Efficiency which is the completeness of electron transfer in batteries. (Batteries specifically, can be applied elsewhere....iirc). We also need to get familiar with mechanical degradation as well. There are physical parts in a battery that just stop working correctly over time.

Anyway, I’m summary...li-on batteries degrade pretty quick for real world use, are getting better as the technology progresses.

Dangerous for three reason.

1) sourcing the raw materials, in some places is very dangerous and involves kids and other human decency issues (specifically cobalt mining)

2) there is an underground group of Tesla/EV home builders purchasing up all the wrecked and flooded Tesla’s (specifically) from Copart and other salvage auction sites. These batteries are being disassembled and the cells being sold on the internet via facebooks groups and other buy sell sites. Think about that for a minute. I’m afraid that someone is going to get crushed (under a battery) at home, electrocuted, or covered in the electrolyte from a damaged battery.

3) to a much lesser extent, home tinkerers like me need to be aware that any electrical cable colored in orange is a high voltage cable for an EV. This is universal for all EV’s.

As a sub note Tesla blacklists any car that it finds out is totaled. What this means is that you can’t purchase major components for the car from Tesla or charge the car on the SuperCharger network Tesla owns. This is why there is a whole sub-Cultire iof part swaps for Tesla builders.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

ADUS wrote:
Besides sooting up your garage every time you start it up, NEVER AGAIN.

No soot from newer diesels. Tailpipe on my Ram is clean as a whistle after 45,000 miles.

The very simple reasons why gas engines outsell diesels in small vehicles has a lot to do with the fact that fuel is cheap enough here that most buyers would rather have more performance than fuel economy as long as the fuel costs are within their comfort zone of what they are willing to pay. Most of these small diesels are built for fuel economy and not performance which is just a small piece of the market.

The gas version of my car, the 328i with its 240 hp, would blow the doors off of my 180 hp 328d even though they both have the same 2.0L of displacement. Most BMW owners opt for the 328i for that reason alone. Same goes for these small diesels in the midsize and 1500 trucks. The small diesels in the trucks are just outperformed by their gasoline counterparts. The HD trucks are a little different because their big displacement diesels outperform their gasoline counterparts which is why most HD trucks are sold with diesels over gas.

When it comes to engine,s Americans lover their performance and are willing to sacrifice some fuel economy for that performance as long as the fuel costs remain low. The reason why small diesel cars are more common elsewhere is mainly due to much higher fuel prices and the fact that diesel fuel costs much less in most places.

Emissions and reliability.
Not to mention some of us would rather have a gas motor with no problems.

My next truck will be a gas motor. Preferably a Ram Mega Cab with the 6.4L.

Learjet wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

Learjet wrote:
My wife wouldn't do very well trying to go and find the oily Diesel handle and put the right stuff in the green hole...just saying :)

Then your wife isn't very astute....or trainable, lol.

Just for the record and my protection you said that and not me :W

I hate to state that I find that washing the oily diesel off ones hands is much easier then washing the stench of gas off ones hands!
No matter what I use it takes two days to get the stink of gas off my hands, diesel GoJoe and some regular hand soap and gone.

RobertRyan wrote:

John & Angela wrote:
The whole VW emmisions scandal has changed the landscape . Some cities like Paris are in the countdown to not even allowing them within city limits. Much more oversight now and the whole public image of diesels has taken a hit. There is only so much money for R and D and a ton of money is being spent on electric vehicles by all manufacturers. BMW has some real nice diesel sport sedans. Not sure if they are available in North America.


All the above JMHO.

Paris will be banning all ICE vehicles.It does not apply to a lot of Europe as Lessmore has posted.Over 40% of all vehicles on European roads are diesel comopared to 2 % in the US

I would be surprised if the percentage were that low. I'd venture that at least half of 2500/3500 pickups are diesel and nearly every class 7 or larger truck is diesel. Now if you're talking passenger cars, I'd say 2% is probably correct.

RobertRyan wrote:

John & Angela wrote:
The whole VW emmisions scandal has changed the landscape . Some cities like Paris are in the countdown to not even allowing them within city limits. Much more oversight now and the whole public image of diesels has taken a hit. There is only so much money for R and D and a ton of money is being spent on electric vehicles by all manufacturers. BMW has some real nice diesel sport sedans. Not sure if they are available in North America.


All the above JMHO.

Paris will be banning all ICE vehicles.It does not apply to a lot of Europe as Lessmore has posted.Over 40% of all vehicles on European roads are diesel comopared to 2 % in the US

Interesting. I didn’t know it was all ice vehicles. It seems to me there are a few other cities in Europe doing the same thing. Even entire countries although I can’t remember which ones. Holland maybe??

colliehauler wrote:
With the advancements of gasoline engines and lower cost most people will stay with a gas motor. Small gas motors with turbos give both power and good milage, just not at the same time.

Diesels have replaced Petrol/ Gas engines outside NA for Commercial vehicles, Pickups
In places like Europe price and fuel mileage are a big reason.
Outside of Europe, towing and fuel milage are main drivers

Grit dog wrote:

Learjet wrote:
My wife wouldn't do very well trying to go and find the oily Diesel handle and put the right stuff in the green hole...just saying :)

Then your wife isn't very astute....or trainable, lol.

Just for the record and my protection you said that and not me :W