Dodge all in on electric too 500 mile range Ram

Almost to page 10 boys!! Keep up the good work!
If there was an Olympic event for dead horse beating, y’all would probably be able to assemble a medal contention team!

JRscooby wrote:
...
From what I see, any time somebody talks about spending for anything that helps the people, we hear "Working class will pay! Working class will pay! Working class will pay!" OTOH, if they give somebody that has more money than they will ever spend more money, the kids are never mentioned

You missed the whole point. I don't care what government spends money on or how much they spend. They can have a $10T BBB bill, I don't care.

But It's way past time to start paying as you go or It Goes Down the Drain. The kids already got enough debt because of "Us"; quit putting it on the credit card for our kids to pay off.

When they start paying as you go you won't have to worry about a bridge to nowhere or giving "somebody that has more money than they will ever spend more money".

nickthehunter wrote:
Here’s the way the conversation goes.

“So kids I called you all together today to make a confession. Your Mother and I screwed up. We contributed to the creation of these Superfund sites by buying inexpensive cars made with the cheap steel that ended up creating all this pollution on this planet. But we did the right thing and cleaned it all up for you; so you could enjoy the clean planet you deserve and not have all that destruction that we created.

So I have prepared for you all a bill to pay for the cleanup; there is one for each of you, and here is a bill also for your kids, and I also have one here for your grandkids, in case your kids decide to have kids – so you all can pay to cleanup the mess we created. We’re really sorry we created this mess for you, but not sorry enough for us to pay to clean it up, you all can do that.”

This morning I heard a report that that the west has not been in this long or severe drought going back 800 years, maybe more. 800 years is the limit of info, not the last drought. So it is not a question wither or not future generations will pay, but will they pay money while having a climate to live in.

That's the same way we worry about paying for all the other free stuff

From what I see, any time somebody talks about spending for anything that helps the people, we hear "Working class will pay! Working class will pay! Working class will pay!" OTOH, if they give somebody that has more money than they will ever spend more money, the kids are never mentioned

valhalla360 wrote:

Thermoguy wrote:
One of the biggest challenges for EV's is that the infrastructure is taking more time to update than the manufacturers are to develop and people to buy. So in the US our current administration is going above and beyond to change that. The incentives to install charging stations, and the push to put them everywhere is very real and growing. If you own a campground and the government will pay you to upgrade your electric grid if you put in a few charging areas, stations, or pedestals, will you? My guess is that is why KOA is doing it. Get the free money while you can!!

I believe this is the main reason KOA is getting into the charging station game.

Let's say it's an older park with 200 - 30amp sites. In theory, if everyone maxed out, they would need a supply capable of supplying 6000amps but in reality, that will never happen and the electrical code allows for reducing the supply amperage. I would have to look it up but I think it's something around 70% or about 4200amps.

If they install 6 high output 250kw charging stations, that's about 12,500amps and it is quite possible that 6 charging stations could be in operation simultaneously. 12,500amps likely will require a substantial upgrade to the supply including off site grid upgrades. But for KOA, the incremental cost to upgrade it to 16,200amps or even more will be negligible. Effectively, they get a discounted upgrade paid for by the govt.

Assuming they don't promote the charging stations, they likely get little use and they wind up with a system that is massively overbuilt for RV usage and can support a large percentage (if not all) sites having 50amp pedestals.

Worst case scenario, during peak demand, something as simple as a couple of "out of order" signs to limit EV charging to 3-4 vehicles at a time would leave a much larger overhead to support the RV park side of the equation.

PS: I did the calculations at 120v to keep the math simple. In reality, they will use higher voltages to keep the amperage down.

Interesting. I have never seen indication that KOA is getting into the L3 charging business. Is this something new they have announced?

JRscooby wrote:
...I have heard this for at least half a century. When it comes to environment, a honest look would see bullsnot. Remember Love Canal? Times Beach? Burning rivers? Without government spending and regulations most of the country would be as polluted as Superfund sites by now. Most of the people that worry about the dollar cost of
of reducing emissions can't look at the cost of wildfires, floods, and storms, let alone our children and grandchildren's quality of life behind our destruction.
Veterans Health Care is not free, Public Health Care is not free.

Here’s the way the conversation goes.

“So kids I called you all together today to make a confession. Your Mother and I screwed up. We contributed to the creation of these Superfund sites by buying inexpensive cars made with the cheap steel that ended up creating all this pollution on this planet. But we did the right thing and cleaned it all up for you; so you could enjoy the clean planet you deserve and not have all that destruction that we created.

So I have prepared for you all a bill to pay for the cleanup; there is one for each of you, and here is a bill also for your kids, and I also have one here for your grandkids, in case your kids decide to have kids – so you all can pay to cleanup the mess we created. We’re really sorry we created this mess for you, but not sorry enough for us to pay to clean it up, you all can do that.”

That's the same way we worry about paying for all the other free stuff

monkey44 wrote:

We have no issues with government spending for the benefit of our citizens and protecting our earth. Just disagreeing with the fact so many folks think it's free just because the Feds write the check.

It's not free, it comes from our tax money and federal fines. It's part of our federal budget, collected from working taxes and-or operating permit fees, or sometimes surplus sales that we originally bought. We pay, it's not free. The government does not earn money for us to pay its bills.

First, society is going to pay for the damage, past and future one way or another. Drop cleaner air and water out of the deal, only count dollars, and the insurance industry will tax the snot out of us.
Now if somebody wants to look at federal government like the family budget, what hurts more, car payment goes up $100 month, or you boss cuts your pay $100/mo? Somehow we as a society have decided that people that work for their money must be taxed at a higher rate than people who's money works for them. Somehow any time the government decides to spend extra on a car payment we hear "Workers will have to pay more!" But when government tells boss "Pay us less" there is no outcry.

valhalla360 wrote:

dodge guy wrote:
EV`s are not going to make it except as a niche market.

Actually, EVs can make up a significant portion of the market.

The bulk of vehicles are owned by multi car homes and the vast majority of daily trips are well under 100miles. If your home has 2 vehicles, one EV that is used as first choice unless it's a longer trip, works very well with overnight charging in the garage. Replacing 50-60miles of range in a compact car, is doable with even a 15amp household outlet. This leaves the ICE available for longer trips. These EVs could easily represent 30-50% of the passenger vehicle market. So the main hurdle is financial, not technical.

Where they are limited is users who regularly travel longer distances and/or under heavy load conditions. They will struggle to charge overnight at slower rates and be forced to use fast charging stations which are still not that fast. These frequent long distance drivers are also likely to be more sensitive to losing a half hour to an hour doing a fast charge.

With a secondary group of those without a place to plug in at home/work, such that they would be dependent on fast chargers for most of their charging.

Niche? Yes, but it is a big and growing niche. And I bet that as more people see how well the EV works for the guy down the street, the niche will grow. (Think about Dr Smith looking at his buggy as Dr Jones goes by in his model T)
I can see as the percentage EV/ICE vehicles come out I can see more employee parking lots apartment PL will be wired.

valhalla360 wrote:

dodge guy wrote:
EV`s are not going to make it except as a niche market.

Actually, EVs can make up a significant portion of the market.

The bulk of vehicles are owned by multi car homes and the vast majority of daily trips are well under 100miles. If your home has 2 vehicles, one EV that is used as first choice unless it's a longer trip, works very well with overnight charging in the garage. Replacing 50-60miles of range in a compact car, is doable with even a 15amp household outlet. This leaves the ICE available for longer trips. These EVs could easily represent 30-50% of the passenger vehicle market. So the main hurdle is financial, not technical.

Where they are limited is users who regularly travel longer distances and/or under heavy load conditions. They will struggle to charge overnight at slower rates and be forced to use fast charging stations which are still not that fast. These frequent long distance drivers are also likely to be more sensitive to losing a half hour to an hour doing a fast charge.

With a secondary group of those without a place to plug in at home/work, such that they would be dependent on fast chargers for most of their charging.

This is why I have a Bolt EV for the last 25 months.

I was actually a 6 vehicle family (the peak time when daughters needed vehicles). The Bolt EV price (lease or purchase) was cheaper than anything else at the time. It cost $100 more than the rebate to buy and install the charger (garage already had extra power). It has gone on two roadtrips that required charging. One trip was planned to give a small boost, the other trip was an adventure, with a single charger necessary to make the trip.

So I look at my Bolt EV as a teaching vehicle. To better understand charging (like charge warm, not after dinner in 20F), better understand range vs speed, how much regen, etc.

Today, my daughters will borrow that car for some uses. The teacher who delivers food to the homes of students during holidays, will come borrow the free car. The future son-in-law will borrow while pet/house sitting, and save 100 miles a day on his F150. The 21 year old when she needs to demonstrate the capabilities against a Mustang.

Will we get to all electric? My employer says we will. I think I will keep an ICE Express Extended Van and a Diesel 3500HD in my fleet for awhile. But I am excited for my reserved Silverado EV!

dodge guy wrote:
EV`s are not going to make it except as a niche market.

Actually, EVs can make up a significant portion of the market.

The bulk of vehicles are owned by multi car homes and the vast majority of daily trips are well under 100miles. If your home has 2 vehicles, one EV that is used as first choice unless it's a longer trip, works very well with overnight charging in the garage. Replacing 50-60miles of range in a compact car, is doable with even a 15amp household outlet. This leaves the ICE available for longer trips. These EVs could easily represent 30-50% of the passenger vehicle market. So the main hurdle is financial, not technical.

Where they are limited is users who regularly travel longer distances and/or under heavy load conditions. They will struggle to charge overnight at slower rates and be forced to use fast charging stations which are still not that fast. These frequent long distance drivers are also likely to be more sensitive to losing a half hour to an hour doing a fast charge.

With a secondary group of those without a place to plug in at home/work, such that they would be dependent on fast chargers for most of their charging.

Thermoguy wrote:
One of the biggest challenges for EV's is that the infrastructure is taking more time to update than the manufacturers are to develop and people to buy. So in the US our current administration is going above and beyond to change that. The incentives to install charging stations, and the push to put them everywhere is very real and growing. If you own a campground and the government will pay you to upgrade your electric grid if you put in a few charging areas, stations, or pedestals, will you? My guess is that is why KOA is doing it. Get the free money while you can!!

I believe this is the main reason KOA is getting into the charging station game.

Let's say it's an older park with 200 - 30amp sites. In theory, if everyone maxed out, they would need a supply capable of supplying 6000amps but in reality, that will never happen and the electrical code allows for reducing the supply amperage. I would have to look it up but I think it's something around 70% or about 4200amps.

If they install 6 high output 250kw charging stations, that's about 12,500amps and it is quite possible that 6 charging stations could be in operation simultaneously. 12,500amps likely will require a substantial upgrade to the supply including off site grid upgrades. But for KOA, the incremental cost to upgrade it to 16,200amps or even more will be negligible. Effectively, they get a discounted upgrade paid for by the govt.

Assuming they don't promote the charging stations, they likely get little use and they wind up with a system that is massively overbuilt for RV usage and can support a large percentage (if not all) sites having 50amp pedestals.

Worst case scenario, during peak demand, something as simple as a couple of "out of order" signs to limit EV charging to 3-4 vehicles at a time would leave a much larger overhead to support the RV park side of the equation.

PS: I did the calculations at 120v to keep the math simple. In reality, they will use higher voltages to keep the amperage down.

time2roll wrote:
Often enough the upgrade of the main feed is brought in by the utility as part of the rate structure.
If the business plans to lose money on deals they will soon be out of business. I will leave that to the business owner to decide if they want to move forward.

Haven't pulled a new power connection have you. Power companies charge for the connection and if it's a big one, you pay for any upgrades needed outside of your property.

Park we were staying at during covid lockdown was looking to upgrade as it's a 1960's vintage park but people are bringing in larger more power hungry rigs. Owner says the power company wants around $150k to upgrade the supply. This is a reactively small park.