First drive Ram 1500 diesel

Being one of those that commutes about 50 miles a day and doesn't really have room for a dedicated tow vehicle and separate daily driver, I'm looking very closely at these new half ton offerings. The Ecoboost definitely got my attention, but doesn't appear to be living up to it's projected MPGs. The numbers aren't out for the Ecodiesel yet, but virtually ALL of the reviewers are raving about their mileage.

What does this phrase "old school for a diesel engine" mean? Does it mean "tried and true"? Or does it mean "should be retired"?

I'm also having trouble seeing much of a difference in maintenance and upkeep costs. If "old school" means "tried and true", then that 3 liter diesel sounds like an awesome option for someone like me, especially with more than half of that 50 mile commute being highway. I could recoup my costs pretty quickly.

As far as repair costs, since we're comparing the two drive trains, it should be noted that the Ecoboost has been shown to have at least one chink in its armor too.

The Ford's larger payload options would have been the deciding factor for me just a few years ago. Now, as an empty nester with bad knees, not so much. The assumed better towing mileage of that Ram diesel would definitely be more important now too. Assumed is a scary word though.

Perrysburg Dodgeboy wrote:
Itguy you talk about cost of owning a diesel. All Rams come with 10 year 100,000 mile power train coverage. So if the pump takes a dump within that time frame it's not going to cost you a thing. The oil change interval for a diesel is longer then for a gas engine so that should be a wash.

So what is the cost of those twin turbos under the hood of you EB going to cost you if they go side ways? Bet that cost is higher than a pump on a diesel.

Here's an idea, if you like gas engines then by all means buy them. Some of us like towing with a diesel so whatever trips your trigger there.....It.

Don

He actually laid out the costs of those parts, it is a little over half the price of a CP3. Again remember that Gasoline Direct Injection pumps are only pushing 2,000 psi while diesels are pushing 20,000 to 40,000 psi depending on fuel system. However, if I did live around where he lives, I don't know if I'd consider a diesel. That price spread in the north east is pretty harsh. Looks like west coast, southeast and west of Chicago have the prices much closer together (unless you're in California). I'm figuring the price strain in the northeast though is due to heating oil competing with diesel.

And back to itguy, I'd have to agree with your duty cycle. If you're not having much in the way of constant highway commuting, it would murder a modern diesel. It seems like in your specific use-case, gas just make sense. Here on the west coast, towns are drastically spread apart between the rockies and the cascades. Lots more uninterrupted highway driving in these parts. I also took duty cycle into account on selecting my truck. Heck, the only parts where towns are close together are around Puget sound and the metro areas like Portland, Salt Lake City, and Boise. Outside of those metro areas, you're almost guaranteed a longer distance commute for anything, and that's where diesel tends to make sense. Heck, except for the east side of puget sound, I figure there are plenty of suburban commuters driving 10+ miles each way to work (I'm one of them).

Yes five years not ten. Not sure how I put ten and not five :h :S

Don

Perrysburg Dodgeboy wrote:
Itguy you talk about cost of owning a diesel. All Rams come with 10 year 100,000 mile power train coverage. So if the pump takes a dump within that time frame it's not going to cost you a thing. The oil change interval for a diesel is longer then for a gas engine so that should be a wash.

So what is the cost of those twin turbos under the hood of you EB going to cost you if they go side ways? Bet that cost is higher than a pump on a diesel.

Here's an idea, if you like gas engines then by all means buy them. Some of us like towing with a diesel so whatever trips your trigger there.....It.

Don

Must be an extended warranty. My Ram only came with 5yr-100,00 warranty.
http://www.ramtrucks.com/shared/pdf/warranty/2012_Ram_Diesel_Utilize-2500.pdf

Jus2shy wrote:
From the article, it looks like it actually is a little old-school From the article, it looks like it actually is a little old-school for a new diesel..

It actually is not a cutting edge diesel, but a cheaper old tech engine.

So what is the cost of the twin turbo's?
from a post on this page - $820 and 754 depending on which side
+ labour

Itguy you talk about cost of owning a diesel. All Rams come with 10 year 100,000 mile power train coverage. So if the pump takes a dump within that time frame it's not going to cost you a thing. The oil change interval for a diesel is longer then for a gas engine so that should be a wash.

So what is the cost of those twin turbos under the hood of you EB going to cost you if they go side ways? Bet that cost is higher than a pump on a diesel.

Here's an idea, if you like gas engines then by all means buy them. Some of us like towing with a diesel so whatever trips your trigger there.....It.

Don

jus2shy wrote:
I have to admit that Diesel prices are very... varied across the country. Which is why in Gas vs. Diesel posts, I typically like to say it depends on your area. But being a forum that can be seen across America, I like to just use averages. So the quick analysis would show a benefit for half of America and no benefit for the other half. However, I've always been suspect of Love's/Pilot/Travel Centers of America. Any fueling station within 500 feet of an interstate tends to command the highest prices in my personal observations (especially the truck stops here). Just drive off the interstate for half a miles or more and the prices drop tremendously. But we don't always have that option in the middle of nowhere LOL.

As for DEF, fuel economy on DEF that I've experienced unloaded is roughly 1,400 miles per gallon. So actually slightly less than 2% of fuel consumed. So every 100 gallons of diesel burned is 2 gallons of DEF or %5.00 worth of DEF spread out over 100 gallons of diesel. So this really adds about 5 cents per gallon of diesel. Really not much. Even the guys that tow hard are still sitting in a range of 1 to 3% of diesel consumed.

I get what you are saying about prices when traveling but I think it's important for everyone to do the math for their location since that's where most of the miles will be.

Really had no idea about DEF usage other than reading for the cars it was needed to be filled at every oil change which I guess is 7.5-10k. I figured it didn't add much.

Summer and winter gas did play a number on my 2010 F-150. I noticed a 1 to 2 mpg drop during the winter. However, on your F-150, are you configured with a max-tow crew?

Yup, Super Crew, Max Tow, 3.73's, 4wd, and short bed. Not the biggest but not the smallest either. I was figuring I'd hover just under 20 and I figure once things warm up it will be close there. If I had the 3.55's or the 3.15's I think I'd be over 20 but would loose tow capacity.

The Ecoboost is only truly more economical when you're not boosting (displacement on demand). However when fully boosted you have an effective 7.3 liter gas motor (assuming 16psi of peak boost). Currently with my diesel, I'm matching or exceeding the average on the 2013 v6 F-150's with my truck (my 3-month average is sitting at 19mpg mixed city highway).

Yeah I learned that with the Taurus. It will pull like a beast - put 4 adults in it and it will run up most grades near triple digits (I ran out of cajones before it ran out of steam) but the downside is you can practically watch the gas gauge go down. :) But it sure is fun! :)

I looked at Diesel before we got the F150. It's not my Daily Driver and from what I hear these new Diesels like to be driven so it seemed like even my plan of 1 week a month to work would kill a new Diesel. And considering the expense of repairing them I figure gas was the way to go.

Thanks, double check your owners manual. I was taken a back that my 5.4 specifically called out a semi-synthetic oil.

I'll have to check it. I know it lists some Ford specification and I was under the impression that all 5w20's were semi-synthetcic as that's the only way to make that spread. But I could be wrong. For the $40 the Ford dealer charges I hope they use the correct oil but even if not should anything have happened under warranty I'd fight that tooth and nail as they were the only place I had oil changes done. At 70k now on the Taurus I'm out of any warranty.

Good job on getting parts prices. I still wonder what the labor will cost but it should be similar on a diesel to do the job. Glad to see the injectors are cheap, I was expecting somewhere between 100 to 200 bucks being a direct-injection unit. I guess prices have dropped from the last time I owned a direct injection vehicle (Saturn Sky Redline 2007).

Yeah I was surprised how cheap the parts were - I was expecting a boatload for the injectors and fuel pump. I wonder if the mass production for the engines is going to drive the prices down.

I believe that this will be "Bust out the lawn chairs, crack open a cold one and see how it all unfolds" type of deal until the new engine drops and we start finding the weak points and the costs to repair them.

Yup. Chrysler has been down this road before wight he Jeeps and Diesels and it was not a success. With all the delays of this engine (it was supposed to be here at the end of 2013 initially) I think there are issues meeting MPG targets and such.

But it will be interesting to see how this plays out. Me? I like the lighter truck, turbo engines approach as I think it combines cheap fuel with OK fuel economy but the flat power everyone likes from a Diesel.

If I towed in the 5000lb loaded range about 3000 miles a year I'd jump all over the Ram. I'm sure it would get better towing mpgs as well. Whats not to like about 27 mpg on the hwy. Maybe 12-13mpg towing. Wait till summer when most people go camping and gas and diesel prices are much closer. I remember last year when diesel was actually cheaper than reg here in Oregon.

itguy08 wrote:

For me that is a realistic interpretation of Gas vs Diesel prices here in PA. Maybe we get hosed on Diesel but I would think a truck stop (in a huge trucking town) would have competitive Diesel prices. Other stations in the area seem to be above $4 for Diesel vs $3.33 - $3.36 for gas. You can check out Gasbuddy and use zip 17013.

Don't forget DEF which I think you need a couple gallons of it every 10k or so IIRC it's about $2.50/gallon.

I have to admit that Diesel prices are very... varied across the country. Which is why in Gas vs. Diesel posts, I typically like to say it depends on your area. But being a forum that can be seen across America, I like to just use averages. So the quick analysis would show a benefit for half of America and no benefit for the other half. However, I've always been suspect of Love's/Pilot/Travel Centers of America. Any fueling station within 500 feet of an interstate tends to command the highest prices in my personal observations (especially the truck stops here). Just drive off the interstate for half a miles or more and the prices drop tremendously. But we don't always have that option in the middle of nowhere LOL.

As for DEF, fuel economy on DEF that I've experienced unloaded is roughly 1,400 miles per gallon. So actually slightly less than 2% of fuel consumed. So every 100 gallons of diesel burned is 2 gallons of DEF or %5.00 worth of DEF spread out over 100 gallons of diesel. So this really adds about 5 cents per gallon of diesel. Really not much. Even the guys that tow hard are still sitting in a range of 1 to 3% of diesel consumed.

And I've also used a worst case scenario for fuel economy too. With my Taurus (Also Ecoboost) in the summer it's pretty much 21-22 mpg in my mixed driving and in the winter it's 18-20 in the same loop. I'm expecting once we see warmer temps around here I'll also get better MPG in the F150 which will also wipe out the savings of Diesel.

Summer and winter gas did play a number on my 2010 F-150. I noticed a 1 to 2 mpg drop during the winter. However, on your F-150, are you configured with a max-tow crew? When looking at Fuelly, I was actually saddened when looking at average mpg's sitting around the 16 to 17mpg range for trucks with similar configuration to my F-150 which had 3.73 gears, 4x4, long bed, crew cab. So basically the biggest F-150 you could own. This is also why I'm skeptical of the new 2.7. I'm theorizing that if you have the biggest version of an F-150, you're laying into the "boost" range of the Ecoboost. The Ecoboost is only truly more economical when you're not boosting (displacement on demand). However when fully boosted you have an effective 7.3 liter gas motor (assuming 16psi of peak boost). Currently with my diesel, I'm matching or exceeding the average on the 2013 v6 F-150's with my truck (my 3-month average is sitting at 19mpg mixed city highway).

Curious on this one. For the Ecoboost it doesn't require the semi-synthetic. Pre 2011 car applications get 5w20 and post 2011 car and truck get 5w30. Holds 6 quarts of oil and can go up to 10k between changes (per Ford). For the Taurus I pay $40 at the dealer for an oil change and tire rotation. I'd expect the F150 to be the same although I'll probably change it myself and throw in some Pennzoil Ultra to clean things up as I bought it used.

Thanks, double check your owners manual. I was taken a back that my 5.4 specifically called out a semi-synthetic oil. I went ahead and found the owner's manual online for a 2013 F-150, 3rd printing (so it should be the latest stuff). Even though its 6 quarts, it is a synthetic blend that they're calling for in the US. Canada is probably a semi-synthetic or full synthetic, just probably a marketing spiel specific to Canada. This was found on page 400 on the owner's manual.

Motorcraft® SAE
5W-30 Premium
Synthetic Blend
Motor Oil (US)
•Motorcraft® SAE
5W-30 Full Synthetic
Motor Oil (US)
•Motorcraft® SAE
5W-30 Super Premium
Motor Oil (Canada)
•Motorcraft® SAE
5W-30 Synthetic Motor

You're much better off doing the service on your own if you can. Again, any lube joint in my local area will wipe the floor with you when the words "Synthetic" or "Diesel" is uttered. That's why I only use my DIY prices. Thankfully most modern engines are still serviceable for lube oil and filter.

I think repairs on, say an Ecoboost will be less than a Diesel due to the sheer volume. I was curious so I went to fordparts.com to get these prices:

High Pressure Fuel Pump for the 3.5EB: $381.52
Motorcraft Fuel Injector for the 3.5 EB: $77.12
Turbocharger - $820.00 or $754 (depending on which side)

Those are dealer prices and I'm sure there will be other sources for parts as these vehicles age. The sheer # of Ecoboosts running around guarantees that.

I think even as things age you will see less maintenance and repair costs for an Ecoboost vs a Diesel. Look around the net for the teardown pics of the EB - it is surprisingly simple.

It will be interesting to watch but I think Diesel will remain a niche. People will see the $2k add on, look at the price of Diesel and buy the gas version. Diesel makes sense in the small cars where you can get 50 MPG (vs 30 or so) in a car but not here where the fuel economy gains take so long to pay back.

Good job on getting parts prices. I still wonder what the labor will cost but it should be similar on a diesel to do the job. Glad to see the injectors are cheap, I was expecting somewhere between 100 to 200 bucks being a direct-injection unit. I guess prices have dropped from the last time I owned a direct injection vehicle (Saturn Sky Redline 2007).

On my diesel, the fuel pump on my rig is roughly a $700 proposition.
Injectors are roughly 330 a piece depending (2k for a set of 6).
Can't find my specific turbo though (HE300VG).
However, in my experience (transit), the fuel pumps last with the engine at 350-400k miles (CP3's or XPI). Turbo's and Injectors will reliably hit over 200k miles and we're planning on extending out that work (past experience had us doing this work earlier and we've been pushing this out with newer fleets). Transit is probably the worst possible way you can treat a diesel motor. Well transit and refuse trucks. So even though the potential is there, I don't expect to really have to repair this stuff in the life I own a vehicle.

However, this is all about the VM Motori diesel. Fiat is the godfather of modern common-rail diesel technology (kinda funny how I said that about an Italian company). The VM Motori has legendary reliability over in Europe that's about as hallowed as Cummins' here. However they did turn up the boost for the US market and I'm curious to see if that will have any adverse effect on that motor. Parts wise, the injectors would be much cheaper (solenoid activated) versus the Piezo injectors that my truck uses. The fuel pump will cost more (Bosch CP4). And the turbocharger is currently a mystery. All I know is that it's going to be far smaller than the snail on my diesel and probably bigger than 1 of the snails on the Ecoboost since it only uses 1 turbo.

I believe that this will be "Bust out the lawn chairs, crack open a cold one and see how it all unfolds" type of deal until the new engine drops and we start finding the weak points and the costs to repair them.