First drive Ram 1500 diesel

jus2shy wrote:

Wow, that has to be a worst case scenario on Diesel to Regular price spread. All over the PNW, I've only observed a 10 to 15% price increase in diesel. So regular here is around $3.30 and Diesel is around $3.75.

However, lets get realistic. I'll site a source, the EIA. Here's the US' Average Fuel Price Spread: $3.30 regular vs. $3.87 diesel. So roughly a 57 cent mark-up or 17% mark-up. Not too bad. so using your numbers above:

909 gallons of regular: $3,000 bucks
652 gallons of diesel: $2,524 bucks

So that's an annual savings of $476.

For me that is a realistic interpretation of Gas vs Diesel prices here in PA. Maybe we get hosed on Diesel but I would think a truck stop (in a huge trucking town) would have competitive Diesel prices. Other stations in the area seem to be above $4 for Diesel vs $3.33 - $3.36 for gas. You can check out Gasbuddy and use zip 17013.

Don't forget DEF which I think you need a couple gallons of it every 10k or so IIRC it's about $2.50/gallon.

And I've also used a worst case scenario for fuel economy too. With my Taurus (Also Ecoboost) in the summer it's pretty much 21-22 mpg in my mixed driving and in the winter it's 18-20 in the same loop. I'm expecting once we see warmer temps around here I'll also get better MPG in the F150 which will also wipe out the savings of Diesel.

Cummins or Powerstroke. I honestly don't know how much oil it will take. However, I also notice that nobody sites that modern turbo-gasoline engines site the need for a semi-synthetic while you can still use good ol' dyno oil in a diesel. Oil alone, I spend only $40 bucks. On my F-150 that demanded semi-synthetic (I ran full-synthetic anyways, but I'll use semi-syn prices that I personally observed), I spent about $30 bucks per oil change (a jug and a half). So I spend $10 more bucks on oil for my diesel. For my oil filter, it only costs $7 bucks more

Curious on this one. For the Ecoboost it doesn't require the semi-synthetic. Pre 2011 car applications get 5w20 and post 2011 car and truck get 5w30. Holds 6 quarts of oil and can go up to 10k between changes (per Ford). For the Taurus I pay $40 at the dealer for an oil change and tire rotation. I'd expect the F150 to be the same although I'll probably change it myself and throw in some Pennzoil Ultra to clean things up as I bought it used.

The potential for costly service is there though, I will not deny that with the new high pressure common rail fuel injection systems. However, you have similar issues on the gas side with HP fuel pumps ran off the cams, DI fuel injectors and turbochargers (and in some cases 2 of them). Sooted-up intake valves. However these costly services are rare and the issues that happen on the net make it sound like the issue applies to all of the respective vehicle (gas or diesel).

I think repairs on, say an Ecoboost will be less than a Diesel due to the sheer volume. I was curious so I went to fordparts.com to get these prices:

High Pressure Fuel Pump for the 3.5EB: $381.52
Motorcraft Fuel Injector for the 3.5 EB: $77.12
Turbocharger - $820.00 or $754 (depending on which side)

Those are dealer prices and I'm sure there will be other sources for parts as these vehicles age. The sheer # of Ecoboosts running around guarantees that.

I think even as things age you will see less maintenance and repair costs for an Ecoboost vs a Diesel. Look around the net for the teardown pics of the EB - it is surprisingly simple.

It will be interesting to watch but I think Diesel will remain a niche. People will see the $2k add on, look at the price of Diesel and buy the gas version. Diesel makes sense in the small cars where you can get 50 MPG (vs 30 or so) in a car but not here where the fuel economy gains take so long to pay back.

itguy08 wrote:

spoon059 wrote:

Why? If the diesel gets 28 and the hemi gets 18 on the highway and you tow 6 times a year... why not?
15,000 miles a year average 24 mpg is 535 gallons of diesel at $3.75/gallon is $2008/year in fuel prices.
15,000 miles a year average 18 mpg is 833 gallons of gas at $3.30/gallon is $2750/year in fuel prices.

Let's put some real #'s to it comparing another tow rig - the Ecoboost 3.5. Have a 2011 F150 with the EB, 3.73's and Max Tow. Averaging about 16.5 in mixed driving in the 11 degree weather here in PA. Once the weather warms up I suspect I can flirt with 20 MPG.

15000 miles @ 16.5 MPG = 909 gallons of gas
15000 miles @ 23 MPG (Ecodiesel as reported by the journalist in mixed driving) = 652 gallons of Diesel.

Now here's the kicker - the cost of Diesel:

Flying J @ Carlisle, PA : Regular $3.33 Diesel: $4.19

909 gallons of Regular : $3,026.97
652 gallons of Diesel : $2,731.88

So the DIesel saves me $295.09 per year or a payback of roughly 10 years. And that's not including the more expensive Diesel maintenance and hoping a HPFP or something similar doesn't break along the way.

Should I flirt with 20 MPG any savings will be erased. And I'm driving a proven powerplant to boot.

Wow, that has to be a worst case scenario on Diesel to Regular price spread. All over the PNW, I've only observed a 10 to 15% price increase in diesel. So regular here is around $3.30 and Diesel is around $3.75.

However, lets get realistic. I'll site a source, the EIA. Here's the US' Average Fuel Price Spread: $3.30 regular vs. $3.87 diesel. So roughly a 57 cent mark-up or 17% mark-up. Not too bad. so using your numbers above:

909 gallons of regular: $3,000 bucks
652 gallons of diesel: $2,524 bucks

So that's an annual savings of $476.

Now onto the subject of maintenance. Everyone seems to assume the Ecodiesel will have the same maintenance schedule as a gasser, and will use the same amount of oil as a Cummins or Powerstroke. I honestly don't know how much oil it will take. However, I also notice that nobody sites that modern turbo-gasoline engines site the need for a semi-synthetic while you can still use good ol' dyno oil in a diesel. Oil alone, I spend only $40 bucks. On my F-150 that demanded semi-synthetic (I ran full-synthetic anyways, but I'll use semi-syn prices that I personally observed), I spent about $30 bucks per oil change (a jug and a half). So I spend $10 more bucks on oil for my diesel. For my oil filter, it only costs $7 bucks more

Annual Fuel Filter: $80 to $100 depending on diesel... ecodiesel filters just as expensive? Who knows, I don't own one nor do I know its filtering requirements, so I have to assume HD prices but it will most likely be closer to a VW (which I never owned) than a Cummins.
Annual oil fluid cost increase: $20 (assuming 2 changes a year) increase over my F-150
Annual increase in typical DIY servicing? $140 bucks

Still looks like you come out ahead. Again, in this quick analysis, I'm assuming the same 6 month or 7,500 mile servicing interval. On the newest Cummins motors though, the servicing interval is 6 months or 15,000 miles. In the end, we can't really come up with a conclusive argument on fuel filter costs for the new 3.0 VM Motori mill. However, if Fiat/RAM feels like making its oil changes 1 year or 15,000 miles, then that could blow another hole in the "Diesels are way more expensive to service" argument. Looking at how long many posters hold onto their vehicles on these boards, the payback could be there. However, I would want to wait until I see some posts on fuelly about average MPG. I personally thought about upgrading my 2010 F-150 to a 2013 F-150 if it would still work for me. However, seeing that the mpg's for an Ecoboost are really only 1 mpg better with the same configuration as my 2010 F-150 (albeit with more bottom stump pulling power), it wasn't worth it for me (and really more of a let-down fuel economy wise). Also the wife wanted something bigger in the future so I had to go HD.

The potential for costly service is there though, I will not deny that with the new high pressure common rail fuel injection systems. However, you have similar issues on the gas side with HP fuel pumps ran off the cams, DI fuel injectors and turbochargers (and in some cases 2 of them). Sooted-up intake valves. However these costly services are rare and the issues that happen on the net make it sound like the issue applies to all of the respective vehicle (gas or diesel).

(edit) I did read an article on the VM Motori 3.0 and it is a neat mill. From the article, it looks like it actually is a little old-school for a new diesel. Namely surprised that the injectors are solenoid actuated (that ought to cut injector prices to less than half). However I am still worried about the Bosch CP4 pump it'll use, again similar to VWs, Fords and Duramaxes. I wish they coulda just stuck with the CP3 but apparently it doesn't put out enough pressure. I earnestly hope that this engine turns out to be a cheaper lighter-duty class of diesel like the VW diesels. Looking at how low the premium is for the VM Motori motor, I'd assume that it'd cost only 1 or 2 grand over a gas engine if the engine ever needed to be swapped. This would be a far smaller specter to fear than the current 12k+ price that HD diesel motors command.

spoon059 wrote:

Why? If the diesel gets 28 and the hemi gets 18 on the highway and you tow 6 times a year... why not?
15,000 miles a year average 24 mpg is 535 gallons of diesel at $3.75/gallon is $2008/year in fuel prices.
15,000 miles a year average 18 mpg is 833 gallons of gas at $3.30/gallon is $2750/year in fuel prices.

Let's put some real #'s to it comparing another tow rig - the Ecoboost 3.5. Have a 2011 F150 with the EB, 3.73's and Max Tow. Averaging about 16.5 in mixed driving in the 11 degree weather here in PA. Once the weather warms up I suspect I can flirt with 20 MPG.

15000 miles @ 16.5 MPG = 909 gallons of gas
15000 miles @ 23 MPG (Ecodiesel as reported by the journalist in mixed driving) = 652 gallons of Diesel.

Now here's the kicker - the cost of Diesel:

Flying J @ Carlisle, PA : Regular $3.33 Diesel: $4.19

909 gallons of Regular : $3,026.97
652 gallons of Diesel : $2,731.88

So the DIesel saves me $295.09 per year or a payback of roughly 10 years. And that's not including the more expensive Diesel maintenance and hoping a HPFP or something similar doesn't break along the way.

Should I flirt with 20 MPG any savings will be erased. And I'm driving a proven powerplant to boot.

Redsky wrote:
The 3.0L diesel puts out only 240HP and 420 lb-ft torque while the 5.7L gas engine provides 395HP and and 410 lb-ft of torque. Why would anyone pay a premium price for the diesel engine and diesel fuel for a truck to tow?

Why? If the diesel gets 28 and the hemi gets 18 on the highway and you tow 6 times a year... why not?
15,000 miles a year average 24 mpg is 535 gallons of diesel at $3.75/gallon is $2008/year in fuel prices.
15,000 miles a year average 18 mpg is 833 gallons of gas at $3.30/gallon is $2750/year in fuel prices.

420 lb ft vs 410 lb ft for towing go for the torque
finding diesel while traveling - there are 4 year old threads and been beatin to death.

cost of ownership vs higher resale

meh

The 3.0L diesel puts out only 240HP and 420 lb-ft torque while the 5.7L gas engine provides 395HP and and 410 lb-ft of torque. Why would anyone pay a premium price for the diesel engine and diesel fuel for a truck to tow?

All the studies have shown a 15% higher total cost of ownership with diesel vehicles in the short run and it only gets worse when repairs are added into the figures with vehicles with more than 75,000 miles. Add in the difficult of finding diesel while traveling and diesel is not a good choice for sub 10,000 lb. trailer loads.

Automakers are adding diesel vehicles because of higher Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards, which will climb to 54.5 miles per gallon by 2025. Diesel engines are 20 percent to 40 percent more fuel efficient than equivalent gasoline engines. They get to charge customers a premium for the engines and the customers get to pay the higher fuel and maintenance costs. Win-win for the manufacturers.

The one place where diesels are more economical is with small cars where a diesel will provide a 35-47% gain in fuel economy over the same car with the gas engine. With the Volkswagen Jetta and Golf there is also not the premium markup found with diesel powered pickups, and pickups in general.

$2850 for a diesel is very very good,unless its already a loaded truck - still very good,mileage is on target - bet its what Ford had in its sights with the alinumin F150.
First one to EPA rating of 30 mpg will crow from the roof tops.

I just read a review of the 2014 RAM EcoDiesel on FoxNews.

They quoted these specs:
** 3.0-liter turbocharged V6--240 hp and 420 lb-ft of torque.
** 8-speed automatic is standard
** $2,850 step-up cost from the Hemi engine
** 9,200-pound tow rating
** Ram promises it’ll be “at least” 27 mpg
** ... the cheapest Ram 1500 diesel ringing up at just under $30,000

Here's the reporters MPG synopsis:
"I consistently got 28 mpg on the interstates in my 4x4 Crew Cab, and that’s at 65+ mph, not clogging up the right lane at the double-nickel. Overall, I saw a 23 mpg average in the few hundred miles that I covered, with plenty of stop-and-go, city-slicker-style driving in the mix."

This Fuel Efficiency PLUS towing capacity race is turning out to be a good thing for truck buyers.

Wilbur 1 Yes it still is with the older model{still sold in Australia} but not the new one. The Nissan Navara only comes with a 2.5 or 3 litre 405lbs ft of torque diesel. People very disappointed the new Patrol only came with a Petrol engine as main overseas market is the US, that only uses them as Boulevarde Cruisers, not Off Road tugs like here.

Sport45 wrote:
So is this 3.0 liter going to become the "Ego-Diesel" for those that want to join the club? :)

Not with a 9 second 0-60 time lol