We all know that factory dry weights (GVW or tongue) are pie-in-the-sky numbers that go up when you get your unit. But just what exactly is and isn't included in the factory dry weight assigned by a factory? I've read various opinions.It seems typical that factory options are not included and I can see why, to a point at least. But when options are added, how do they come up with weights for various options? For example, if you buy a power awning, do they take the difference in weight between a manual and power one? What about an upgrade to theater seating? Would they allow for the difference in weight?Do they use a bare bones, stripped down unit as a base line for a dry weight?? If so, do they actually add the weight of any items onto this? I've read some say that some standard things that you would assume are included in a base dry weight aren't, like say a microwave. Is this correct and what else would they do this with? Sofa? Fridge? I know that things installed by the dealer like propane tanks, batteries and spare tire aren't included, but why don't they say this on their websites and tell you what to expect for the additional weight?It seems like the way dry weights are assigned by a factory are done differently by different manufacturers. Would this be correct? I've read some say that the UVW (dry weight) that is on a label affixed to each unit is very close to the actual weight as measured at a scale. Are some manufacturers more truthful on this than others? The actual weight of our TT is waaay off the factory UVW. I'd have to go find the numbers to verify, but it's something like nearly 1,000 lbs off.I seem to recall reading that there is supposed to be new legal requirements to give a correct dry weight number for each unit as built. Is this right? It isn't happening. It seems like manufacturers are getting away with murder and they use the lowest dry weight they can for marketing purposes.

I've never been concerned about the dry weight. I only look at GVWR on the sticker to make sure it's under my towing weight limit. Then I take unit to scale and find out where I'm starting from.When loaded for 1st trip out, I run truck and trailer over the scale to find all my weights. I've never been up against max limits. I prefer having having a cushion for better towing performance from my truck.When I( purchased my last 5vr, the weights listed on sticker in cabinet were very close to scale weights, even showing weights for full water tank and propane tanks.

On my trailer the only option added was a spre tire! So the only additional weight will be LP and batt. My trailer has a GVWR of 11,200 lbs, a dry weight of 7100lbs which gives me a 4100lb CCC! The GVWR is useless to me as i will never use the whole 4k lb ccc. And yes i weighed it i'm at 9200 lbs ready for a trip.Btw. On my TT things like micro, awning, stove, even heated mattress and ceiling fan are standard.

Factory dry weights should be quite accurate. Many are weighed on a scale.It is the catalogue dry weights that can be very inaccurate as they will not include the options. And some manufacturers are definitely worse than others as some have all the options "included" and others do not. For example my Trailmanor Elkmont's catalogue dry weight did not include "options" that were actually required! So I always check the yellow sticker on the lot to get the factory payload (GVWR minus Dry Weight).One thing I noticed recently is that the double pane thermal window option always adds hundreds of pounds to a trailer's dry weight. So if you want this option, make sure the catalogue says you have a lot of payload. The catalogue payload of our new trailer is 1850#, but its factory payload on the yellow sticker is only 1181#, primarily because of the thermal windows. Typically, when I asked the salesman over the phone what the payload of the trailer was he just quoted the 1850# number without even looking at the actual trailer.

I think the catalog listing can be way off, but my understanding is each unit is now weighed and a label made up with the weight "as equipped" from the factory. When shopping around through the dealers lot I noticed that identical units had slightly different numbers, so I do believe they are weighed individually.The factory does not mount the battery or fill the propane cans, so depending on the specifics of those items, you can add 100 pounds or so right there on the a-frame (tongue weight).The key to that dry weight, as far as I have learned, is in what options where assembled at the factory. If the dealer adds slide toppers or awnings or whatever else you could think of, then the dry weight sitting there on the dealers lot will be different.Obviously that factory dry weight number means very little in terms of the reality of using the unit, either factoring in dealer add-on or your own gear. I was told by a few RV friends and, even the salesmen we talked to, to count on adding 800-1000 pounds of stuff for just the 2 of us and be aware of how you load that stuff in the TT so as not to add too much in the front (excess tongue weight). We got about 1700 CCC, so I think we will be fine.

Knowning the dry weight is very important when buying a new RV. If you don't know that number, how will you determine the actual carrying capacity of that rig? Some TT have a real close weight between the actual dry weight and the GVW. By the time you add the LP, and full fresh water you don't have much capacity left for your items. It is great to have over 4,000# capacity over the dry weight, but that is the exception for most rigs. The numbers between the dry weight and the gross weight are very close on many rigs.

Just what is included in a factory dry weight number?

Huntindog
Explorer
Nov 06, 2013
Bob Landry wrote:
Well, maybe his trailer got shipped without the sticker. Oversights happen, and that's certainly not a reason to argue that there are not procedures and policies, and regulations pertaining to it, or that the trailer manufacturers are involved in some kind of back room deals with the dealers which is what this thread has evolved to over the course of five pages.
I'm not going to try to argue this or try to explain to the OP any more about this. Let him think what he wants to.
It can't be an oversight... He has a WHITE sticker..

To the owner of the TT in question:

Does your TT have the RVIA sticker outside next to the entry door?
Bob_Landry
Explorer
Nov 06, 2013
Well, maybe his trailer got shipped without the sticker. Oversights happen, and that's certainly not a reason to argue that there are not procedures and policies, and regulations pertaining to it, or that the trailer manufacturers are involved in some kind of back room deals with the dealers which is what this thread has evolved to over the course of five pages.
I'm not going to try to argue this or try to explain to the OP any more about this. Let him think what he wants to.
brulaz
Explorer
Nov 06, 2013
Bob Landry wrote:

...
He's also in Canada. They could have different regulations than we do.

Maybe, but every trailer I've looked at up here has the yellow sticker with the payload and tire pressure info, usually near the front driver's side near the pass-thru door.

The trailer I just bought was made in Oregon, and imported to B.C. It definitely has the sticker as well as some info on an inside cupboard door.
Bob_Landry
Explorer
Nov 06, 2013
ktmrfs wrote:
myredracer wrote:
We don't actually have one of those yellow stickers. Have looked everywhere. I see them all the time on other units. We have a white sticker on the inside of a door cabinet showing tongue weight and UVW. It also has the VIN # on it. Is this the equivalent of a yellow sticker? These weights aren't much different than the factory listed dry wts. so it has me wondering.

To me, I see it as a problem when you can't determine from a manufacturer what all the options will weigh in advance of you getting it. No one seems to know exactly what is included in factory dry weight. Is it a stripped down bare bones unit? An average? What about wt. of forced options? Does each and every option you choose add wt.? When upgrading a item, is it a net difference between the standard item and option? Do they include a standard manual awning in the dry weight? Does 100% of a power awning get added or is it the net difference?

To the one who asked about our actual weights, yes I used the correct 3 pass method (with bars in TV) and have done it many times while setting up our WDH. Using a CAT scale and 2 commercial truck scales I got nearly identical numbers. I am still having problems accepting that the tongue wt. is actually 960 lbs when the factory says it is 518 dry. We only have one battery and the holding tanks were empty. I could not get the WDH weight transfer set up until I switched from 800 to 1200 lb bars. We also have a rear kitchen - maybe they bias more wt. to the front to account for wt. in the kitchen? I have a feeling that the factory installed fiberglass cap adds a fair bit of weight up front. We only had some very basic stuff in the trailer - BBQ, sewer hoses & fittings, chocks, leveling blocks, hoses, outdoor mat, clothes for a weekend, dishes & cutlery, food for a weekend, etc. I know that your unit typically goes up by around 1,000 - 1,500 lbs over factory dry wt. but I can't see it being anywhere near 1,000 lbs of added camping stuff. We have just 200 lbs left before hitting the GVWR and that's with empty holding tanks and only one battery. That's unsettling to know. Until proven otherwise, I'm still sure some or all factory options aren't included in the figures on the white sticker in our unit or in published numbers. I may take our now fully emptied TT to a scale to find out what it weighs for the record.

If a dealer installs the propane tanks and batteries (about 40 lbs each)isn't that just over 100 lbs.so the dealer *should* be revising the wt.? So maybe the weight of LP tanks is factored in at the plant. This still goes against the prevailing comments that anything the dealer installs adds weight.

I still read people posting that they find major differences in listed dry weights and their actual while some are finding very close. But for those finding it very close on their yellow stickers, does that mean that some manufacturers include the weight of options on their published weights?

My understanding from reading the regs is that there must be a yellow sticker either on an entry door or cabinet with CCC and unloaded vehicle weight listed. The reg is very clear that the sticker must be yellow. Why yours doesn't have a yellow sticker is perplexing. and the yellow sticker should account for ALL the items installed at the factory, which would include the different front cap and more than likely empty propane tanks, but not a battery.

your white sticker doesn't seem to meet the criteria. First, wrong color, second it sounds like it does not list CCC, that's the critical item that is required under federal reg's. As far as I know there is no requirement to list empty tongue weight.

I'd go back to the selling dealer and ask that they get you a correct yellow sticker. The mfg should have the data to create one based on the VIN # and the weight they recorded.

He's also in Canada. They could have different regulations than we do.
ktmrfs
Explorer II
Nov 06, 2013
myredracer wrote:
We don't actually have one of those yellow stickers. Have looked everywhere. I see them all the time on other units. We have a white sticker on the inside of a door cabinet showing tongue weight and UVW. It also has the VIN # on it. Is this the equivalent of a yellow sticker? These weights aren't much different than the factory listed dry wts. so it has me wondering.

To me, I see it as a problem when you can't determine from a manufacturer what all the options will weigh in advance of you getting it. No one seems to know exactly what is included in factory dry weight. Is it a stripped down bare bones unit? An average? What about wt. of forced options? Does each and every option you choose add wt.? When upgrading a item, is it a net difference between the standard item and option? Do they include a standard manual awning in the dry weight? Does 100% of a power awning get added or is it the net difference?

To the one who asked about our actual weights, yes I used the correct 3 pass method (with bars in TV) and have done it many times while setting up our WDH. Using a CAT scale and 2 commercial truck scales I got nearly identical numbers. I am still having problems accepting that the tongue wt. is actually 960 lbs when the factory says it is 518 dry. We only have one battery and the holding tanks were empty. I could not get the WDH weight transfer set up until I switched from 800 to 1200 lb bars. We also have a rear kitchen - maybe they bias more wt. to the front to account for wt. in the kitchen? I have a feeling that the factory installed fiberglass cap adds a fair bit of weight up front. We only had some very basic stuff in the trailer - BBQ, sewer hoses & fittings, chocks, leveling blocks, hoses, outdoor mat, clothes for a weekend, dishes & cutlery, food for a weekend, etc. I know that your unit typically goes up by around 1,000 - 1,500 lbs over factory dry wt. but I can't see it being anywhere near 1,000 lbs of added camping stuff. We have just 200 lbs left before hitting the GVWR and that's with empty holding tanks and only one battery. That's unsettling to know. Until proven otherwise, I'm still sure some or all factory options aren't included in the figures on the white sticker in our unit or in published numbers. I may take our now fully emptied TT to a scale to find out what it weighs for the record.

If a dealer installs the propane tanks and batteries (about 40 lbs each)isn't that just over 100 lbs.so the dealer *should* be revising the wt.? So maybe the weight of LP tanks is factored in at the plant. This still goes against the prevailing comments that anything the dealer installs adds weight.

I still read people posting that they find major differences in listed dry weights and their actual while some are finding very close. But for those finding it very close on their yellow stickers, does that mean that some manufacturers include the weight of options on their published weights?

My understanding from reading the regs is that there must be a yellow sticker either on an entry door or cabinet with CCC and unloaded vehicle weight listed. The reg is very clear that the sticker must be yellow. Why yours doesn't have a yellow sticker is perplexing. and the yellow sticker should account for ALL the items installed at the factory, which would include the different front cap and more than likely empty propane tanks, but not a battery.

your white sticker doesn't seem to meet the criteria. First, wrong color, second it sounds like it does not list CCC, that's the critical item that is required under federal reg's. As far as I know there is no requirement to list empty tongue weight.

I'd go back to the selling dealer and ask that they get you a correct yellow sticker. The mfg should have the data to create one based on the VIN # and the weight they recorded.
myredracer
Explorer II
Nov 06, 2013
We don't actually have one of those yellow stickers. Have looked everywhere. I see them all the time on other units. We have a white sticker on the inside of a door cabinet showing tongue weight and UVW. It also has the VIN # on it. Is this the equivalent of a yellow sticker? These weights aren't much different than the factory listed dry wts. so it has me wondering.

To me, I see it as a problem when you can't determine from a manufacturer what all the options will weigh in advance of you getting it. No one seems to know exactly what is included in factory dry weight. Is it a stripped down bare bones unit? An average? What about wt. of forced options? Does each and every option you choose add wt.? When upgrading a item, is it a net difference between the standard item and option? Do they include a standard manual awning in the dry weight? Does 100% of a power awning get added or is it the net difference?

To the one who asked about our actual weights, yes I used the correct 3 pass method (with bars in TV) and have done it many times while setting up our WDH. Using a CAT scale and 2 commercial truck scales I got nearly identical numbers. I am still having problems accepting that the tongue wt. is actually 960 lbs when the factory says it is 518 dry. We only have one battery and the holding tanks were empty. I could not get the WDH weight transfer set up until I switched from 800 to 1200 lb bars. We also have a rear kitchen - maybe they bias more wt. to the front to account for wt. in the kitchen? I have a feeling that the factory installed fiberglass cap adds a fair bit of weight up front. We only had some very basic stuff in the trailer - BBQ, sewer hoses & fittings, chocks, leveling blocks, hoses, outdoor mat, clothes for a weekend, dishes & cutlery, food for a weekend, etc. I know that your unit typically goes up by around 1,000 - 1,500 lbs over factory dry wt. but I can't see it being anywhere near 1,000 lbs of added camping stuff. We have just 200 lbs left before hitting the GVWR and that's with empty holding tanks and only one battery. That's unsettling to know. Until proven otherwise, I'm still sure some or all factory options aren't included in the figures on the white sticker in our unit or in published numbers. I may take our now fully emptied TT to a scale to find out what it weighs for the record.

If a dealer installs the propane tanks and batteries (about 40 lbs each)isn't that just over 100 lbs.so the dealer *should* be revising the wt.? So maybe the weight of LP tanks is factored in at the plant. This still goes against the prevailing comments that anything the dealer installs adds weight.

I still read people posting that they find major differences in listed dry weights and their actual while some are finding very close. But for those finding it very close on their yellow stickers, does that mean that some manufacturers include the weight of options on their published weights?
ktmrfs
Explorer II
Nov 06, 2013
myredracer wrote:
I used to have a link to the new (2009) NHTSA regulation but I can't find it. Would be interesting to read it now and see how well it is complied with.

For dealer added items, are they really revising the factory labeled weight? When a dealer adds two 30 lb LP tanks, do they include for the contents? Two full tanks of LP will add about 240 lbs right there (4 lbs per gal.). I have a feeling dealers are either not complying or this is a loophole.

This website says that UVW numbers could possibly be a manufacturers average or estimate. Scroll down to Dry Weight and UVW. Changing Gears

The next time we ever get a new TT, I am going to drive it straight to a CAT Scale before I even take it home. If numbers are far enough off what the factory says they should be (on website or sticker inside) I will be talking to the dealer and/or manufacturer.

Now, if tow vehicle manufacturers could just put on an actual payload sticker on each vehicle as it left the plant, that'd be great...

One BIG problem in what manufacturers list for a dry weight is that a buyer has NO idea how much options weigh and how much your unit will weigh when you get it. A dealer can't even tell you.

Some RV manufacturers list a "dry" weight while others list a "shipping" weight. Very confusing. How can a manufacturer list a shipping weight if you haven't chosen options yet?

There seems to be a real problem with the definition and interpretation of weight terms from manufacturer to owner.

If there is a regulation out there requiring manufacturers to weigh each unit it leaves the plant, is it really happening?? On our current TT, the factory listed tongue wt. is 518 lbs. Sticker inside TT says 580 lbs. Actual tongue wt. (from scale) 960 lbs. Factory listed UVW is 5237 lbs. Sticker inside says "UVW 5480 lbs" Actual TT wt. is 6600 lbs and GVWR is 6800 lbs. Sticker on side of TT says max. CCC is 1320 lbs against factory 1563 lbs. We added many options. The elec. stab. jacks alone are 200 lbs. The numbers don't make sense. We only have 200 lbs of CCC available and we've only loaded in some very ordinary camping gear and supplies that will not weigh anywhere near 1100 lbs. If we towed with a full tank of fresh water, we'd be overloaded. To me, the factory numbers are way off actuality.

so you give a list of actual weights then mention that the trailer is already loaded. So, you really aren't getting a true empty weight.

And it reality it is NOT very hard to add 1,000 or even 2,000lbs of personal stuff into a trailer. And if you added the options, that's on your part of your CCC and not a requirement that the dealer adjust the weights and CCC.

Unload the trailer, take off the stuff not shipped from the factory, empty the propane tanks, remove the batteries unles the came with it from the factory and weight it. and compare those numbers to the yellow sticker numbers. Empty all the water lines, including the HWH (that's 50lbs right there)

and when you weighed the trailer did you unhook your WD hitch when you weighed the TT axles?? If not, you didn't get an accurate TT axle weight. your axle weight would have included the weight transferred to the TT axle by the WD hitch setup which is NOT part of the TT weight. And if you have a WD hitch, the snap up brackets add to TT weight as well, depending on setup, anywhere from 10lbs to 30 lbs.

If those don't match, then you have a reason to question factory numbers, otherwise not.

the federal reg's are very specific. If the trailer is loaded with the max listed CCC from the trailer yellow sticker from stuff added to the trailer AFTER it left the trailer mfg. and the trailer exceeds GVWR, then the mfg is in violation of federal regulations, period. It doesn't make any difference if the stuff is removable (clothing, food, bedding, etc.) or permanent, (batteries,slide toppers, jacks, WD hitch components) It ALL needs to be considered part of the allowable CCC.

I drove our trailer from the dealer to a weigh station scale near home. Guess what, after subtracting the weight of full propane tanks (60lbs) and two 6V GC batteries (125lbs) and the Reese DC mountin brackets the empty weight was within 25lbs of the yellow sticker. probably would have been closer, but the weigh station scale had 50lb resolution.
ktmrfs
Explorer II
Nov 05, 2013
Terryallan wrote:
myredracer wrote:
Bob Landry wrote:
Again, instead of guessing and accepting what you read on forums, a call to the specific manufacturer will tell you what they include in the weight and how it's measured.

I agree to a point, but I think there's something wrong when you ask the dealer and they have no idea. I think some manufacturers just don't have the info. or don't want you to know. Since many buyers are buying now based on weight, why would they disclose option weights and how they are calculated if they aren't required to?

KZ has the following qualifier on their site:

[COLOR=]UNLOADED VEHICLE WEIGHT (UVW) - The typical weight of this trailer as built at the factory. The UVW does not include cargo, LP gas, fresh water, options or dealer-installed accessories.

But if you ask for them for weights of options and dealer added items before you take possession, they can't tell you. That's just wrong. Some manufacturers are better than others though.

Take a specific example - if you buy a fiberglass cap as an option, how do they factor in the weight for it? Is it the net difference between the standard skin and f/g cap? I'm pretty sure the f/g cap will add weight, but how much? What does it do to the tongue weight? Maybe that's one reason our TW is much higher than expected? A dealer and manufacturer should have that info. on hand, I think.

Why can't there be some industry standard rules on how option weights are determined and published?

If regulations have been around since 2009, you'd think this would all be clear as day but it's not.

Notice . Propane in most cases is NOT dry weight. Pretty sure it's wet. Fresh water, also NOT dry weight. Wet again.
As for the fiberglass cap. Where was it installed? If you ordered it from the factory. It was also weighed at the end of the assembly line. If dealer installed. The dealer is required to add it to the sticker.

You can sit a come up with all kinds of things that add weight to a trailer. The yellow sticker, Is The weight of the trailer as you see it, when you walk up to it on the lot. NOT AFTER the customer adds his gear to it.

actually per the federal regs propane is considered part of dry weight. Mfg has two choices, way the trailer with full propane tanks and CCC =GVWR-UVW. Or weight the trailer with empty tanks and list CCC as GVWR-UVW-weight of full propane.

Second is what Keystone did on mine. So in my case CCC is 60lbs less than GVWR-UVW.
ktmrfs
Explorer II
Nov 05, 2013
myredracer wrote:
Bob Landry wrote:
Stop arm-chairing and second guessing and read the yellow label on the trailer. It is the actual weight of the rig as it leaves the factory.

That may be what is supposed to be happening, but I seriously doubt it is throughout the industry. From what I've been reading on various forums, some are finding that the sticker they get is pretty close to what it actually weighs while some are not.

I can say that in our case, what the manufacturer says the UVW and tongue is compared to what they actually are not even close to what I'm finding from going to a scale. The weight of the elec. stab. jack option just by itself is not reflected in what the sticker inside our unit says. And we bought quite a few options. That leads me to believe that none of them are included on the weight sticker inside the unit. I note that in their 2014 specs., for our superceded (nearly identical) model, they have revised the tongue wt. up and CCC down.

Where do you ever see a dealer or manufacturer telling you that the contents of two full 30 lb propane tanks adds 240 lbs? That by itself should require the dealer to be revising the weight, but they're not.

Is the NHTSA or anyone else monitoring what's going on and checking for compliance? What if a manufacturer doesn't comply?

It seems to be a real problem with the way manufacturers are flogging their units now. They're all promoting their ultra-lite and super-lite trailers based on dry weights and how easily you can tow them with 1/2 ton trucks and SUVs. If you ask me, I think they should be required to list the weight of every single option you want to buy.

two 30lb full propane tanks add 240lbs???? UH...... NO it adds 60lbs a 7.5 gallon propane tank holds 30lbs of propane when full. Lift one, it ain't no 120lbs that's for sure. And the weight of full propane is already accounted for as part of empty weight one way or another anyway per the federal regs.
Terryallan
Explorer II
Nov 05, 2013
myredracer wrote:
Bob Landry wrote:
Again, instead of guessing and accepting what you read on forums, a call to the specific manufacturer will tell you what they include in the weight and how it's measured.

I agree to a point, but I think there's something wrong when you ask the dealer and they have no idea. I think some manufacturers just don't have the info. or don't want you to know. Since many buyers are buying now based on weight, why would they disclose option weights and how they are calculated if they aren't required to?

KZ has the following qualifier on their site:

[COLOR=]UNLOADED VEHICLE WEIGHT (UVW) - The typical weight of this trailer as built at the factory. The UVW does not include cargo, LP gas, fresh water, options or dealer-installed accessories.

But if you ask for them for weights of options and dealer added items before you take possession, they can't tell you. That's just wrong. Some manufacturers are better than others though.

Take a specific example - if you buy a fiberglass cap as an option, how do they factor in the weight for it? Is it the net difference between the standard skin and f/g cap? I'm pretty sure the f/g cap will add weight, but how much? What does it do to the tongue weight? Maybe that's one reason our TW is much higher than expected? A dealer and manufacturer should have that info. on hand, I think.

Why can't there be some industry standard rules on how option weights are determined and published?

If regulations have been around since 2009, you'd think this would all be clear as day but it's not.

Notice . Propane in most cases is NOT dry weight. Pretty sure it's wet. Fresh water, also NOT dry weight. Wet again.
As for the fiberglass cap. Where was it installed? If you ordered it from the factory. It was also weighed at the end of the assembly line. If dealer installed. The dealer is required to add it to the sticker.

You can sit a come up with all kinds of things that add weight to a trailer. The yellow sticker, Is The weight of the trailer as you see it, when you walk up to it on the lot. NOT AFTER the customer adds his gear to it.

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