Now towing with a HDT, why didn't I do this years ago

As Jim points out, we need to know the spec of a given rig to know if it truly will or will not meet ALL of the goals/specs we the end user may face. As I have pointed out many times. I use my trucks for both play and work. Play the spec I need is less than work. Spec meaning what I expect a given truck to do. I can tell, what Jim expects a truck to do, is probably less than what I expect in some instances. As such, I have been disapointed in the how some of my trucks work.

Until as noted, the specs that the manufactures follow or say they are following are handed out, many of us, will never know if the truck will or will not do as we expect.

I too do not like the LDT truck gvwr that is front plus rear = 1.75 to 1.98! To me, 1+1=2......as it does in my mdt. As such, many of us WILL use the sum of 2, as that is what the minimum that an leo will give us for a very high majority of the US states, and for the most part, all of canada, altho BC seems to have some quirks that they may follow the lower number. Then there are states like Washington where I am, the door placard means squat, and they go by the road max before you damage the roads/bridges. I could take a dually 35 series truck, and run down the road legally at around 30-32K lbs. Not that I will recommend this, but it would be legal from an LEO standpoint. Warranty wise, I'm screwed! I would also expect an LEO to get me off the road from some other law/spec that they make me follow. Like I need to stop said truck from 20 mph within 25 or 35'. I doubt that would happen, so I will be red tagged with a failed braking system. I will stop, but not with in the spec that state laws define!

At the end of the day, one needs to follow state and federal laws, along with know what the manufacture will warranty, and what makes you feel safe while operating your vehicle.

Happy New year to you all!

marty

Mr. Cob wrote:
Howdy All,

As an old fashioned American, I firmly believe in the freedom of speech, and even if I may not agree with what you say I'll support your right to say it.

That said I am not an engineer but I have been around the block a few times and can only speak from my personal experience, as I said in the title of this thread, wish I done this years ago. I just returned from a three month stint in so-cal, ran the Grapevine going south and coming back north, 50-55 mph traffic permitting and the truck was just chugging along 15 pounds of boost where my Dodge would have been running 38-40 and the pyro in the red at 40 mph.

As I have said many times, do what works for YOU, but I know my HDT will pull harder and work less, get better fuel mileage, stop much quicker and in control, is a more comfortable and much less stressful to ride in and drive.

I hope all of you folks had a Merry Christmas and will have the best and Happiest New Year.

Dave

Thanks Dave, hope you too had a Merry Christmas and hope you have a Happy, safe and prosperous New Year.

Jim

Howdy All,

As an old fashioned American, I firmly believe in the freedom of speech, and even if I may not agree with what you say I'll support your right to say it.

That said I am not an engineer but I have been around the block a few times and can only speak from my personal experience, as I said in the title of this thread, wish I done this years ago. I just returned from a three month stint in so-cal, ran the Grapevine going south and coming back north, 50-55 mph traffic permitting and the truck was just chugging along 15 pounds of boost where my Dodge would have been running 38-40 and the pyro in the red at 40 mph.

As I have said many times, do what works for YOU, but I know my HDT will pull harder and work less, get better fuel mileage, stop much quicker and in control, is a more comfortable and much less stressful to ride in and drive.

I hope all of you folks had a Merry Christmas and will have the best and Happiest New Year.

Dave

Buckboard: is a light single seat 4 wheeled wagon, one seat with a box type bed, used about the ranch for light hauling and "pick up" work. The term is still used hereabouts when referring to pickup trucks.

Juice brakes: air brake driver slang for hydraulic brakes.

06Fargo wrote:

NC Hauler wrote:

06Fargo wrote:

NC Hauler wrote:

jims1 wrote:
I too am making this leap to the dark side. What a lot of folks don't realize is that their Dodges, Fords, and Chevy's are not built to handle the advertised weight ratings day in, day out. We tow 17.5-18k depending on the level in the tanks. .

Some truth to that, but there are also a lot of us out here who do know what they're doing, can do the simple math and know what we need to tow with. My 2013' Ram 3500 crew cab, long bed, 4X4 Dually, with 4:10 gearing has a GVWR of 14,000#, with a RAWR of 9750# and a GCWR of 37,000#. My 5er has a GVW of 16,950#, loaded to 16,050, with a 3300# pin weight. CAT scales has my truck loaded, ready to hook to my 5er with full tanks,5er hitch, wife, pets and toolbox @ 9,420#. That put's my loaded truck at a weight of 12,720#( 9420# plus 3300# pin weight), and total weight of 25,470.(5er @ 16,050# plus truck loaded weight of 9420)) So as you can see, I'm 1280# under my trucks GVWR, and WELL under my trucks GCWR and doing it all with a 1 ton crew cab dually which, at this time, has to also be my daily driver.

You're basically saying, those that tow well over their trucks limits day in , day out, won't last.. I agree with you on this, if it's what you meant. But i also believe if one has matched the truck with what they're towing, and is maintained properly it WILL perform day in and day out, just as it was designed to do.

My truck also has the medium duty Aisin transmission option in it, which, which makes my towing combo of Cummins/Aisin a little more robust, capable of towing even your examples of a 5er in the 17.5-18K weight range with just the 1 ton dually....

Any speculation at all why Chrysler engineers (lawyers?) rate a pickup for 37,000lbs GCWR, but it is not rated to haul the sum of it's two axle ratings without a trailer?

Being an Engineer myself in a manufacturing plant that manufacturers brake calipers, I don't pretend to know it all, nor least of all "speculate" on anything without knowing fact's given to me by the manufacturer of the sum of all the components that it takes to build a brake caliper, be it single piston, dual piston, combi-caliper, ABS, ESC, etc..., can't help it, have been in manufacturing since 75..

My RAWR is 9750#, my FAWR is 6,000#, together that equals 15,750, though recommended GVWR is only 14,000# ( Math/calc/statistics/robotics is my "bag:)). SO, being an old engineer, one who has more common sense than most of the younger Engineers, I go by what is recommended and use specs and comply with what other engineers have come up with due to reliability or safety reasons, (based on my part of manufacturing).

and I really don't understand what you want me to "speculate on when you ask, "Any speculation at all why Chrysler engineers (lawyers?) rate a pickup for 37,000lbs GCWR, but it is not rated to haul the sum of it's two axle ratings without a trailer? I have NO idea what you're asking me and I have a Degree in Secondary Ed, (thought I wanted to be a school teacher and never followed through, then got an Engineering degree, and I really can tell you that Engineers are NOT Lawyers...that's more in the warranty and responsibility, liability dept of a manufacturer....our company has Engineers who are just that, Engineer's, then they have a completely different building in another state that takes care of liability claims, contracts, warranties, etc.... if there are any, or any accident's due to our products, which are used on Chrysler, GM, Ford, Volvo, Mercedes Benz, VW, BMW and several others that use our brake by wire, ABS, ESC systems and brake calipers and adapters, and also the new combi-calipers...

It seems everywhere I post, you have issues with me trying to follow my trucks recommended tow ratings, or when I bring up weights. ...WHY?? I know it's not popular, I get called names, get ugly PM's, but it still doesn't change my mind when it comes to matching tow vehicles up with what one is towing. It's as though you are trying to justify yourself though me going in the opposite direction. I really don't understand your question. I gave all my weights, I fall WELL within all my weights, not even over my trucks GVWR, no where close to touching my RAWR, with OEM "E" rated tires, and it appears you have issues with this. I don't need air bags, I don't need to talk about all the safety buffers built in, I don't need to say a 1 ton SRW truck is just like mine, except the tires, (because in my trucks comparison, that is not true).

You need to call Chrysler Corporation to get your answer, and it'll probably be one you won't accept or want to hear.....I know and live specs, can't help it....it's what "I" do, whether anyone else does it or not, I can take the name calling, the piling on and the filthiness I've gotten in personal pm's from some on these forums, but, it won't change my mind about matching the right tow vehicle up to what ever it's towing, using the recommended hitch, and speeds that I think are safe to tow at....matters not if no one agrees with me, I still believe what I believe.

Sorry I couldn't answer your question as to why Chrysler recommends a certain amount of weight to be towed...I would say that you could call Ford or GM and get the same answer from THEIR Engineers and lawyers, but it probably wouldn't make any difference to you...

NC Hauler - FYI - I did call Chrysler first before posting on a rv forum and asked them the question why the weight ratings don't add up specifically on my truck. They could not give me an answer. I then had an engineer from a federally approved truck equipment upfitter contact Chrysler on my behalf and no further information was discovered. It's a Big Secret.

I don't have degrees or much for educations - I have no secret agenda - sorry to upset you- you could have answered me with "It's the brakes because..." and I would believe you due to your credentials, without the paragraphs.

A little poking around the spec sheets shows it is common practice in pickup trucks that these weights don't add up so I guess it is more pickup legal b.s. and not a life threatening component issue.

That's why I posted the question a couple times here.

I have hauled with class 8 - 140,000lbs on 8 axles on snow and ice - I have no interest in over 23-25000lbs with any kind of pickup buckboard with juice and electric brakes.

Have a safe and Happy New Year.

You win...I quit. Sorry, but I already knew everything you just told me and have told me before. I've worked with some of these design Engineers when we design their ABS, ESC systems and their front and rear brake calipers for some of the trucks we put these systems on..we have to know their specs, and of course our brakes EXCEED their specs they expect us to meet. It's our way to cover "liability". It's no "secret" as you suggest, call GM and Ford and ask them the same question you posed to Chrysler....there is only so much info they'll push to the public..Just plain old common sense liability coverage for those who ignore numbers.

I have not towed with a Class 8, nor would I care to but I don't poke fun at others or their equipment for NOT having done it, I've towed rv's all through the mountains of WV, TN, VA, SC and NC since 75, but it really doesn't mean a lot. My truck isn't a "pickup buckboard", have no idea what you meant by that or by the comment "with juice", but did understand the electric brake comment. I too have no interest in towing over 23,000# to 25,000# with my pick up either...have no idea where some of your rants are coming from....I know I have enough pickup truck, loaded to the teeth with awesome options and most comfortable, that will easily and safely handle what I need it to do where I do my towing.

So, I will try to steer clear of you in these forums for it appears we won't get along or agree. May you to have a Happy New Year, and that's probably without the sarcasm you had in your offering to me. You win, Your right, your far more experienced...Uncle...

I DO want to apologize to the OP for having hijacked your thread if you're still around. I truly did not mean for this to happen...Again, I'm sorry for that.

jims1 wrote:
Not arguing here on someones post. But,
Go find a long straight road, get up to speed, lets say 65mph. Do an emergency stop- put the truck into an antilock situation, lock the trailer tires into a skid, use your exhaust brake etc. See how far you go, try to do an evasive maneuver while doing this. Now do this with your trailer brakes unhooked, say due to a blowout that cuts the wiring or hydraulic lines. A 9000lb truck will have a real hard time stopping a 18000lb trailer. Say you leave the proper spacing between you and the vehicle in front, that space always fills up with smaller cars that don't care about their squish factor, do a panic stop now. The momentum of the rv will push you thru an intersection, down the hill, whatever is in front of you. I realize the engineers have made sure the brakes were up to the task, that the frame was strong enough, to move the load and stop the load under normal circumstances.

Been there done that, going down I26 on the Saluda grade in NC, cable to 5er became disconnected, evidently, I hadn't pushed it in good enough...BIG DIFFERENCE trying to slow 16,000# down behind the truck...was just lucky it was on interstate and little traffic and nothing going on to worry about it...I took my time slowing, pulled over and re-connected the plug in, but did smell the truck brakes some in just a controlled slow down from about 55 mph....Agree with your analogy.

NC Hauler wrote:

06Fargo wrote:

NC Hauler wrote:

jims1 wrote:
I too am making this leap to the dark side. What a lot of folks don't realize is that their Dodges, Fords, and Chevy's are not built to handle the advertised weight ratings day in, day out. We tow 17.5-18k depending on the level in the tanks. .

Some truth to that, but there are also a lot of us out here who do know what they're doing, can do the simple math and know what we need to tow with. My 2013' Ram 3500 crew cab, long bed, 4X4 Dually, with 4:10 gearing has a GVWR of 14,000#, with a RAWR of 9750# and a GCWR of 37,000#. My 5er has a GVW of 16,950#, loaded to 16,050, with a 3300# pin weight. CAT scales has my truck loaded, ready to hook to my 5er with full tanks,5er hitch, wife, pets and toolbox @ 9,420#. That put's my loaded truck at a weight of 12,720#( 9420# plus 3300# pin weight), and total weight of 25,470.(5er @ 16,050# plus truck loaded weight of 9420)) So as you can see, I'm 1280# under my trucks GVWR, and WELL under my trucks GCWR and doing it all with a 1 ton crew cab dually which, at this time, has to also be my daily driver.

You're basically saying, those that tow well over their trucks limits day in , day out, won't last.. I agree with you on this, if it's what you meant. But i also believe if one has matched the truck with what they're towing, and is maintained properly it WILL perform day in and day out, just as it was designed to do.

My truck also has the medium duty Aisin transmission option in it, which, which makes my towing combo of Cummins/Aisin a little more robust, capable of towing even your examples of a 5er in the 17.5-18K weight range with just the 1 ton dually....

Any speculation at all why Chrysler engineers (lawyers?) rate a pickup for 37,000lbs GCWR, but it is not rated to haul the sum of it's two axle ratings without a trailer?

Being an Engineer myself in a manufacturing plant that manufacturers brake calipers, I don't pretend to know it all, nor least of all "speculate" on anything without knowing fact's given to me by the manufacturer of the sum of all the components that it takes to build a brake caliper, be it single piston, dual piston, combi-caliper, ABS, ESC, etc..., can't help it, have been in manufacturing since 75..

My RAWR is 9750#, my FAWR is 6,000#, together that equals 15,750, though recommended GVWR is only 14,000# ( Math/calc/statistics/robotics is my "bag:)). SO, being an old engineer, one who has more common sense than most of the younger Engineers, I go by what is recommended and use specs and comply with what other engineers have come up with due to reliability or safety reasons, (based on my part of manufacturing).

and I really don't understand what you want me to "speculate on when you ask, "Any speculation at all why Chrysler engineers (lawyers?) rate a pickup for 37,000lbs GCWR, but it is not rated to haul the sum of it's two axle ratings without a trailer? I have NO idea what you're asking me and I have a Degree in Secondary Ed, (thought I wanted to be a school teacher and never followed through, then got an Engineering degree, and I really can tell you that Engineers are NOT Lawyers...that's more in the warranty and responsibility, liability dept of a manufacturer....our company has Engineers who are just that, Engineer's, then they have a completely different building in another state that takes care of liability claims, contracts, warranties, etc.... if there are any, or any accident's due to our products, which are used on Chrysler, GM, Ford, Volvo, Mercedes Benz, VW, BMW and several others that use our brake by wire, ABS, ESC systems and brake calipers and adapters, and also the new combi-calipers...

It seems everywhere I post, you have issues with me trying to follow my trucks recommended tow ratings, or when I bring up weights. ...WHY?? I know it's not popular, I get called names, get ugly PM's, but it still doesn't change my mind when it comes to matching tow vehicles up with what one is towing. It's as though you are trying to justify yourself though me going in the opposite direction. I really don't understand your question. I gave all my weights, I fall WELL within all my weights, not even over my trucks GVWR, no where close to touching my RAWR, with OEM "E" rated tires, and it appears you have issues with this. I don't need air bags, I don't need to talk about all the safety buffers built in, I don't need to say a 1 ton SRW truck is just like mine, except the tires, (because in my trucks comparison, that is not true).

You need to call Chrysler Corporation to get your answer, and it'll probably be one you won't accept or want to hear.....I know and live specs, can't help it....it's what "I" do, whether anyone else does it or not, I can take the name calling, the piling on and the filthiness I've gotten in personal pm's from some on these forums, but, it won't change my mind about matching the right tow vehicle up to what ever it's towing, using the recommended hitch, and speeds that I think are safe to tow at....matters not if no one agrees with me, I still believe what I believe.

Sorry I couldn't answer your question as to why Chrysler recommends a certain amount of weight to be towed...I would say that you could call Ford or GM and get the same answer from THEIR Engineers and lawyers, but it probably wouldn't make any difference to you...

NC Hauler - FYI - I did call Chrysler first before posting on a rv forum and asked them the question why the weight ratings don't add up specifically on my truck. They could not give me an answer. I then had an engineer from a federally approved truck equipment upfitter contact Chrysler on my behalf and no further information was discovered. It's a Big Secret.

I don't have degrees or much for educations - I have no secret agenda - sorry to upset you- you could have answered me with "It's the brakes because..." and I would believe you due to your credentials, without the paragraphs.

A little poking around the spec sheets shows it is common practice in pickup trucks that these weights don't add up so I guess it is more pickup legal b.s. and not a life threatening component issue.

That's why I posted the question a couple times here.

I have hauled with class 8 - 140,000lbs on 8 axles on snow and ice - I have no interest in over 23-25000lbs with any kind of pickup buckboard with juice and electric brakes.

Have a safe and Happy New Year.

Not arguing here on someones post. But,
Go find a long straight road, get up to speed, lets say 65mph. Do an emergency stop- put the truck into an antilock situation, lock the trailer tires into a skid, use your exhaust brake etc. See how far you go, try to do an evasive maneuver while doing this. Now do this with your trailer brakes unhooked, say due to a blowout that cuts the wiring or hydraulic lines. A 9000lb truck will have a real hard time stopping a 18000lb trailer. Say you leave the proper spacing between you and the vehicle in front, that space always fills up with smaller cars that don't care about their squish factor, do a panic stop now. The momentum of the rv will push you thru an intersection, down the hill, whatever is in front of you. I realize the engineers have made sure the brakes were up to the task, that the frame was strong enough, to move the load and stop the load under normal circumstances.

Dayle1 wrote:

06Fargo wrote:

NC Hauler wrote:

jims1 wrote:
I too am making this leap to the dark side. What alot of folks don't realize is that their Dodges, Fords, and Chevy's are not built to handle the advertised weight ratings day in, day out. We tow 17.5-18k depending on the level in the tanks. .

Some truth to that, but there are also a lot of us out here who do know what they're doing, can do the simple math and know what we need to tow with. My 2013' Ram 3500 crew cab, long bed, 4X4 Dually, with 4:10 gearing has a GVWR of 14,000#, with a RAWR of 9750# and a GCWR of 37,000#. My 5er has a GVW of 16,950#, loaded to 16,050, with a 3300# pin weight. CAT scales has my truck loaded, ready to hook to my 5er with full tanks,5er hitch, wife, pets and toolbox @ 9,420#. That put's my loaded truck at a weight of 12,720#( 9420# plus 3300# pin weight), and total weight of 25,470.(5er @ 16,050# plus truck loaded weight of 9420)) So as you can see, I'm 1280# under my trucks GVWR, and WELL under my trucks GCWR and doing it all with a 1 ton crew cab dually which, at this time, has to also be my daily driver.

You're basically saying, those that tow well over their trucks limits day in , day out, won't last.. I agree with you on this, if it's what you meant. But i also believe if one has matched the truck with what they're towing, and is maintained properly it WILL perform day in and day out, just as it was designed to do.

My truck also has the medium duty Aisin transmission option in it, which, which makes my towing combo of Cummins/Aisin a little more robust, capable of towing even your examples of a 5er in the 17.5-18K weight range with just the 1 ton dually....

Any speculation at all why Chrysler engineers (lawyers?) rate a pickup for 37,000lbs GCWR, but it is not rated to haul the sum of it's two axle ratings without a trailer?

There is a simple answer to that and it's called loading. Inexperienced auto/LDT owners will load a vehicle to it's GVWR and NOT pay attention to GAWR or tire loading.

Dayle, that's been my point for quite some time now. AND, you don't have to be an inexperienced auto/LDT owner to overload your tow vehicle. As you should have seen in here for quite some time now. There are far more in here who don't look at or care for the GVWR numbers on a truck, some may care about GCWR, but it too, is mostly ignored, and as they'll point out, there is no carnage on the road, so it's ok. Most WILL look at their RAWR (when discussing cargo carrying capacity in bed of truck or towing), and use that number, again, totally ignoring GVWR....Most will tell you it's just a number and means nothing, and to a point, they're right....you DO have the rear axle rating hanging out there to lap up anything one throws in the bed of the truck, but at what point does one dig deep enough into the trucks rear axle weight holding capabilities? At what point does one start wearing out bearings, stressing spring packs, abusing shocks, pushing limit's of the drive train and so on?? Most don't care, they just "hook up and go". Add tires that will carry more weight, possibly exceeding the weight carrying capabilities of the rear axle itself, thus making it the weak link....it's rare you see this, but do know I've seen one case on the cummins forum.

Manufacturers do have built in safeguards to keep from living with lawsuits when people overload their vehicles...thing is, I don't know at what point one has taken away from some of the safety factors offered by the truck or at what point one starts tearing up their truck, I really do believe that the Engineers that design and manufacture these vehicles DO know the answers and put their "numbers" on the vehicle...to cover them and the owner...but there is a limit to those numbers, but "I'M" not going to ASSUME to know them.

So you are right, simple answer, not so simple and it's not alway's those that don't know what they're doing..some do it because everyone else does it and nothing has happened to them....

Some DO know what they're doing and know enough about the tires, suspension, axle etc...weight ratings to not exceed those and everything is fine...So, as the owner of an expensive tow vehicle and possibly a very expensive TT or 5er one is towing and possibly carrying precious cargo, (ie family), I tend to err to the manufacturers recommended towing weights, run all tires at recommended tire pressures and don't tow over 65 mph, more like 55-62 mph....figure I'm doing everything within my power to protect my family and my investments....just the way I am....I know most don't agree with this, but we're all different and do things differently and that's the way it's been and probably alway's will be.

06Fargo wrote:

NC Hauler wrote:

jims1 wrote:
I too am making this leap to the dark side. What alot of folks don't realize is that their Dodges, Fords, and Chevy's are not built to handle the advertised weight ratings day in, day out. We tow 17.5-18k depending on the level in the tanks. .

Some truth to that, but there are also a lot of us out here who do know what they're doing, can do the simple math and know what we need to tow with. My 2013' Ram 3500 crew cab, long bed, 4X4 Dually, with 4:10 gearing has a GVWR of 14,000#, with a RAWR of 9750# and a GCWR of 37,000#. My 5er has a GVW of 16,950#, loaded to 16,050, with a 3300# pin weight. CAT scales has my truck loaded, ready to hook to my 5er with full tanks,5er hitch, wife, pets and toolbox @ 9,420#. That put's my loaded truck at a weight of 12,720#( 9420# plus 3300# pin weight), and total weight of 25,470.(5er @ 16,050# plus truck loaded weight of 9420)) So as you can see, I'm 1280# under my trucks GVWR, and WELL under my trucks GCWR and doing it all with a 1 ton crew cab dually which, at this time, has to also be my daily driver.

You're basically saying, those that tow well over their trucks limits day in , day out, won't last.. I agree with you on this, if it's what you meant. But i also believe if one has matched the truck with what they're towing, and is maintained properly it WILL perform day in and day out, just as it was designed to do.

My truck also has the medium duty Aisin transmission option in it, which, which makes my towing combo of Cummins/Aisin a little more robust, capable of towing even your examples of a 5er in the 17.5-18K weight range with just the 1 ton dually....

Any speculation at all why Chrysler engineers (lawyers?) rate a pickup for 37,000lbs GCWR, but it is not rated to haul the sum of it's two axle ratings without a trailer?

There is a simple answer to that and it's called loading. Inexperienced auto/LDT owners will load a vehicle to it's GVWR and NOT pay attention to GAWR or tire loading.