Ram Eco-Diesel vs F150 2.7 TT - Davis Dam

goducks10 wrote:
Just got my latest Trailer Life mag. They did a test of a Ram 1500 Ed and a Lance 1995 TT. Lance is 9'9"Hx8'x23'9". Weighed 4860lbs.

The Ram ED has 3.92 gears and is the Outdoorsman model. It got 22mpg solo and 12.6mpg towing. About the same as an Eco Ford.

Shocking!
Or not......

wilber1 wrote:
What about rocket engines that have no rotating parts? What about when you blow up a balloon and release it? What propelles it across the room?

A given force at a given velocity.

Multiply them together and guess what you get - power! That's why I stated power is universal.

Doesn't matter where the force comes from: a blast of air, jet nozzle, propeller, or torque (which is simply force in angular domain), it generates power at a given velocity. That power is what puts objects in motion and gives them acceleration.

Torque is a mean of producing power, as is the fossil fuel. Saying torque is which get you up the hill is as ridiculous as saying is the dead dinosaur that gets you up the hill. Both correct, just ridiculous in terms of physics and engineering.

DSteiner51 wrote:

DirtyOil wrote:

But try explaining what "torque" pulls a million pound jetliner of the ground...

Torque is the lever that lifts the weight, torque is the flywheel that turns the wheels, torque is the compression, combustion and the thrust that sends the jetliner into the wild blue yonder... you can have all the hp you want.. but without the torque, your not getting anywhere.

Sorry, flat out false. Horsepower gets my airplane off the ground, all 87ft lbs at 34,000 rpm, gets my rig up the hill (220ft lbs at 5000rpm. Go back to 8th grade. You have no business past that.

What about rocket engines that have no rotating parts? What about when you blow up a balloon and release it? What propelles it across the room?

DirtyOil wrote:

But try explaining what "torque" pulls a million pound jetliner of the ground...

Torque is the lever that lifts the weight, torque is the flywheel that turns the wheels, torque is the compression, combustion and the thrust that sends the jetliner into the wild blue yonder... you can have all the hp you want.. but without the torque, your not getting anywhere.

Sorry, flat out false. Horsepower gets my airplane off the ground, all 87ft lbs at 34,000 rpm, gets my rig up the hill (220ft lbs at 5000rpm. Go back to 8th grade. You have no business past that.

DirtyOil wrote:

But try explaining what "torque" pulls a million pound jetliner of the ground...

Torque is the lever that lifts the weight, torque is the flywheel that turns the wheels, torque is the compression, combustion and the thrust that sends the jetliner into the wild blue yonder... you can have all the hp you want.. but without the torque, your not getting anywhere.

And just where do those examples apply on a modern jetliner? What about a Saturn V rocket? A cruise missile?

The problem with using torque is that many massive objects can move without torque. But power is universal within well, the universe.

Newton tells us Power = Force x Velocity.

I can apply it to any subject in motion from an oil tanker to the space shuttle. While torque is only applicable to rotating objects. It's a MEAN of producing power, via an important term *rpm*. But torque by itself is not power.

If I hang myself on a 100' bar I'm generating 20,000 lb-ft all day long. But I'm doing jack all... 20,000 * 0 rpm / 5252 = 0 hp.

NinerBikes wrote:
HP does not remain constant when you run it through the friction and losses of a gear box. Normally 15 to 18% loss.

Now you're just nit picking; I think you knew exactly the point I was trying to make.

And to nit-pick you further, a simple planetary gear doesn't lose anywhere near 15 - 15%.

A full transmission, with 3 planetary gear sets, an intermediate shaft, 3 - 5 wet clutch packs, plus a hydraulic pump, is around 18%.

Just got my latest Trailer Life mag. They did a test of a Ram 1500 Ed and a Lance 1995 TT. Lance is 9'9"Hx8'x23'9". Weighed 4860lbs.

The Ram ED has 3.92 gears and is the Outdoorsman model. It got 22mpg solo and 12.6mpg towing. About the same as an Eco Ford.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

RoyJ wrote:

mt1729 wrote:
HP is great for a car but for towing, torque gets it done. I had a old Mack with a 350 hp diesel. It had about 1420 ft lbs torque. It was a little slow pulling 70,000 lbs up a 7% grade but it always made it. How fast do you think a high hp lower torque engine would do? Even a 850 hp Nascar engine? They would power out & stop.

Neglecting wind resistance, the Nascar engine would pull the rig exactly 2.43 times faster.

Here's a way to think about it, if the Nascar V8 makes 850 hp at 9000 rpm (496 lb-ft torque), and I bolted a 5:1 planetary gearset onto the bellhousing, then I would magically turn it into an 850 hp @ 1800 rpm, 2480 lb-ft @ 1800 engine.

If I bolted that onto the Mack's transmission, you wouldn't be able to tell that apart from a highly modified Cat C15, aside from the sound...

See, torque can be manipulated by gearing, while hp ALWAYS stays constant.

The only reason a Big Rig uses low revving diesel instead of high revving gasoline V8s is due to fuel economy and longevity. That Nascar engine would last 500 miles and get 1 mpg pulling a semi trailer.

^^^^^^^^^^^ should be a sticky.

HP does not remain constant when you run it through the friction and losses of a gear box. Normally 15 to 18% loss. You end up with 82 to 85% of your HP left once run through a gear box. Anyone that's ridden a mountain bike with a Rohloff gearbox up hill, racing, can tell you all about the losses, they are huge.

We are talking tow vehicles here, not racing motors, so racing motors and racing HP and racing torque numbers are unwarranted in this thread. Towing a trailer is doing work. When you want work done, you buy a diesel motor to get the heavy work done efficiently.

RoyJ wrote:

mt1729 wrote:
HP is great for a car but for towing, torque gets it done. I had a old Mack with a 350 hp diesel. It had about 1420 ft lbs torque. It was a little slow pulling 70,000 lbs up a 7% grade but it always made it. How fast do you think a high hp lower torque engine would do? Even a 850 hp Nascar engine? They would power out & stop.

Neglecting wind resistance, the Nascar engine would pull the rig exactly 2.43 times faster.

Here's a way to think about it, if the Nascar V8 makes 850 hp at 9000 rpm (496 lb-ft torque), and I bolted a 5:1 planetary gearset onto the bellhousing, then I would magically turn it into an 850 hp @ 1800 rpm, 2480 lb-ft @ 1800 engine.

If I bolted that onto the Mack's transmission, you wouldn't be able to tell that apart from a highly modified Cat C15, aside from the sound...

See, torque can be manipulated by gearing, while hp ALWAYS stays constant.

The only reason a Big Rig uses low revving diesel instead of high revving gasoline V8s is due to fuel economy and longevity. That Nascar engine would last 500 miles and get 1 mpg pulling a semi trailer.

^^^^^^^^^^^ should be a sticky.

But try explaining what "torque" pulls a million pound jetliner of the ground...

Torque is the lever that lifts the weight, torque is the flywheel that turns the wheels, torque is the compression, combustion and the thrust that sends the jetliner into the wild blue yonder... you can have all the hp you want.. but without the torque, your not getting anywhere.