towing near max weight. advice?

ah64id wrote:

Speaking of reading, might reread your owners manual.... Page 394, it was easy for me to find with your vehicle specs, you where just page off.

Should is not a requirement.

C'mon, now you're just nick pickin. Who cares if it's a recommendation, an advisory, a requirement, or a harbinger. If Chrysler/Dodge felt the need to put that message in there at only 1000lbs, that leads me to believe their engineers did not believe the truck could adequately stop a trailer in that weight range, without brakes. If you can find documentation from a manufacturer that says their 1/2 ton brakes are designed to stop an additional 2000lbs trailer at GVWR, then I'm all ears. I'll gladly eat crow. Stopping meaning that it would pass still pass FMVSS. Even in the factory service manuals there's no mention of this. Every manufacturer designs each component/unit in their vehicle with some reserve capacity. They'd be fools not to. But who knows where that failure point actually is and good luck trying to get a manufacturer to disclose that failure point. But applying a blanket 2000lbs or additional capacity across the board based off of theory is just silly. Read FMVSS 105 and 135 in its entirety. These are real standards at which brakes get their certification. You will not find any testing beyond GVWR. No it doesn't specify the max capacity, but it's the only documented validation that exists.

Don't expect anymore replies from me. You've heard the same thing from other users and someone even reports info straight from a brake engineer. Do whatever you want with the info. Have a great day!

CampingN.C. wrote:
There's a couple guys over on the Jayco forum pulling the 32BHDS with an F-150. I haven't weighed mine but the guys that have say they are around 1300lbs tongue weight. Funny thing is those trucks are rated to pull what mine is, but drop 13-1500lbs on the hitch and see what you get!

I'll say here what I said over there. We're not talking about hauling skid steers at work, we have our wife and kids in these trucks going down the road. Why push it?
Even I'm a little lacking in the HP dept. but I've got plenty of truck to safely tow it AND stop.

This.

I have basically the same truck. With the Long bed 4 door and a good hitch I don't have any sway. Very stable. My trailer is 7500 lbs loaded on the scales. Fine for my 6.0. No problem staying the speed limit, but not sure I would tow more than 8000 lbs and personally be comfortable.

Double post...

proxim2020 wrote:

ah64id wrote:

You are not the OP, and based on your Owners Manual I would guess you have a different vehicle. Good job checking your own manual out, vs just reading and believing.

Hahaha, this guy...I tells ya. You may want to take your own advice and read the entire thread. The OP has an 07' 1500 Hemi. I have a 08' 1500 Hemi. Both trucks are in the same generation (3g). Not only are the trucks in the same generation, they're also in the same sub-generation (06'-08'). There's no significant differences in weights and measurements between an 07' and 08'. Actually I don't think there's any significant mechanical difference between the 07' and 08' 1500. Not only that, both of our truck have the same gear ratio (3.92). If I had to guess, the OP's also running 20" wheels (same as mine).

Speaking of reading, might reread your owners manual.... Page 394, it was easy for me to find with your vehicle specs, you where just page off.

Should is not a requirement.

JIMNLIN wrote:

I cannot speak for every trailer axle out there, but I know that Al-Ko uses the same 12”x2” brake on the 5,200 thru 7,000lb axle. I have seen similar stuff in Dexter catalogs. So that’s not always true.

AL/KO says this about brakes/axles

"Weigh the trailer after it is fully loaded and ready for use.
Axles, brakes, wheels, tires, frames and suspension components are
designed to carry a specific maximum weight. Locate the VIN
(Vehicle Identification Number) plate on the trailer. It will show the
GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating). The GVWR is the total
amount your trailer (including tongue weight) can weigh when it is
completely loaded including holding tanks, propane etc. The GAWR
(Gross Axle Weight Rating) is the maximum load that the axles will
carry and the maximum load the brakes will stop."

Now if AL-KO has used 7k brakes on 5.2k axle then thats great but you can be sure the brakes are not less than the GAWR unless someone at the factory installed the wrong brakes on the axle.

Here is the parts manual. As you can see there are different springs, but the brakes are the same. One I saw this I realized why my brakes are so touchy with a light trailer, around 2500-2700 per axle.

http://www.al-ko.us/download/5200-7000IbLeaf.pdf

ah64id wrote:

You are not the OP, and based on your Owners Manual I would guess you have a different vehicle. Good job checking your own manual out, vs just reading and believing.

Hahaha, this guy...I tells ya. You may want to take your own advice and read the entire thread. The OP has an 07' 1500 Hemi. I have a 08' 1500 Hemi. Both trucks are in the same generation (3g). Not only are the trucks in the same generation, they're also in the same sub-generation (06'-08'). There's no significant differences in weights and measurements between an 07' and 08'. Actually I don't think there's any significant mechanical difference between the 07' and 08' 1500. Not only that, both of our truck have the same gear ratio (3.92). If I had to guess, the OP's also running 20" wheels (same as mine).

That same thing applies to GVWR's. There are multiple GVWR's for the same brakes, axles, etc.. 9,000 up to 12,200. So which ones are the brakes designed for??

Good point on the many GVWR especially Fords F350 SRW with over a dozen different GVWRs but the same brake specs.
Brakes are designed and tested by the truck manufacturer before they do the FMVSS testing or so says Dodge truck engineers at the '03 Chicago truck show when Dodge released their newly redesigned '03 2500/3500 trucks. FMVSS testing is just a minimum test requirement that a vehicle has too pass and has nothing to do with a vehicle s actual max braking performance as the truck maker can any assign GVWR to the vehicle as long as it doesn't exceed the sum of the vehicles GAWRs.
And as in my repy above NHTSA says the brakes to tied the axles systems. (see my reply above).

I cannot speak for every trailer axle out there, but I know that Al-Ko uses the same 12”x2” brake on the 5,200 thru 7,000lb axle. I have seen similar stuff in Dexter catalogs. So that’s not always true.

AL/KO says this about brakes/axles

"Weigh the trailer after it is fully loaded and ready for use.
Axles, brakes, wheels, tires, frames and suspension components are
designed to carry a specific maximum weight. Locate the VIN
(Vehicle Identification Number) plate on the trailer. It will show the
GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating). The GVWR is the total
amount your trailer (including tongue weight) can weigh when it is
completely loaded including holding tanks, propane etc. The GAWR
(Gross Axle Weight Rating) is the maximum load that the axles will
carry and the maximum load the brakes will stop."

Now if AL-KO has used 7k brakes on 5.2k axle then thats great but you can be sure the brakes are not less than the GAWR unless someone at the factory installed the wrong brakes on the axle.

jhill7 wrote:
I did verify the dealers were not trying to low ball me with the "dry" weight as stock. All the weights I have received as with all options. But again, I don't think the problem is the tow capacity but rather the payload.

You are missing the point on trailer weight! Assume for a minute that 6900 is the as-delivered, all-in weight. The average family adds 1000-1500 lbs of "stuff" to their trailer when it's packed for camping. Things like clothes, pots/pans, dishes/glasses, towels, toys, appliances, etc etc. So that 6900 lb trailer will likely weigh around 8000 lbs WITH THE TANKS EMPTY!

Since you have already pulled the trigger on this and can't afford a new truck, here's what you can do to your current truck:

1. Replace the P-rated tires with LT tires, load range E.
2. Replace rear axle fluid with synthetic and add a finned hi capacity cover.
3. Add a transmission cooler and temp gauge. Switch fluid to synthetic and consider a shift kit.
4. Add airbags or overload springs.
5. Add HD shocks.

OR:

Trade your truck for a 2500 model that may be a year or two older. Even trade no cash needed.

I know you think it can be done, but trust me I have been there like so many others, thinking that a better towing experience is just one "upgrade" away. The NEXT trip will be better....guess what....it never happens, and after wasting $$$ on upgrades you will finally come to the realization that you need a 2500.

We welcome you as a new member, but would have been great if you would have joined before you pulled the trigger on this camper.

JIMNLIN wrote:

Actually the trucks brakes are a function of the FAWR and RAWR. The 1500 Dodge may have a 3900 FAWR/3900 RAWR = 7800 lbs of braking performance.

Just thinking out loud but I do not believe it's based on axle rating. Front brakes are almost always larger and better than rear brakes, but the FAWR is lower on most pickups and appears to be the same on the 1500 in question. My sig truck front brakes are larger/better than my rear brakes and the same rear brakes are on a RAWR of up to 79% more than the FAWR. Sure seems that if it was based on AWR that the rear brakes would be MUCH larger.

The part that gets interesting is looking at commonly used parts. Like the rear axle on the 2500 Diesel and all 3500 Dodge's from 03-12. It's the same brakes with different axles ratings from 6,010 to 9,350, all of which are higher than the 5,200lb front axle with larger brakes, and lower than the rating that the manufacturer, AAM, gives it.

That same thing applies to GVWR's. There are multiple GVWR's for the same brakes, axles, etc.. 9,000 up to 12,200. So which ones are the brakes designed for??

JIMNLIN wrote:

Same with a tandem axle trailer with 5200 lb axles X 2 = 10400 lbs of braking performance.

I cannot speak for every trailer axle out there, but I know that Al-Ko uses the same 12”x2” brake on the 5,200 thru 7,000lb axle. I have seen similar stuff in Dexter catalogs. So that’s not always true.

proxim2020 wrote:


I don't know about that. My owners manual has a much lower number.

You are not the OP, and based on your Owners Manual I would guess you have a different vehicle. Good job checking your own manual out, vs just reading and believing.

LarryJM wrote:
I can tell you that a TV's brakes are tested for safety thru FMVSS standards for the stated GVWR of the number on the door sticker. This is direct from a senior brake system test engineer for Fed Mogul who does the FMVSS brake testing for the FORD SD trucks. There is no extra 2K wt. involved and a particular braking system is tested to the max GVWR available for that particular configuration. Obviously there is some design reserve, but even the testing folks don't know what that reserve is nor do they really care since they have the numbers and testing protocal to certify a particular braking system for FMVSS certification.

The research I have done tells me different. I also can tell you right now, as I mentioned above, that multiple vehicles use the same setup with different door stickers. The brakes are the same.
A brake setup is designed, prior to a reserve, to stop the most the vehicle (or highest rated vehicle using those components) can weigh. When a truck with a 12,200 GVWR is also allowed to tow a 2K lb trailer WITHOUT brakes the OE engineers take that into consideration.
The 2,000lbs that Dodge allows for a trailer without brakes is based on braking ability and control, as you need a trailer to stop itself.

LarryJM wrote:
Now as to all these comments about your TT brakes stopping the wt of the trailer I say GOOD LUCK and that is JUST NOT THE WAY THINGS WORK. The wheels with the heavier loads and more forward on a vehicle combo will perform the lion's share of any braking. I can't point to or give any definitive documentation or reference to this, but I believe it is correct so those that disagree I would challenge you to likewise provide proof to the contrary. I would not be at all surprised to find that in a towing and fairly aggressive braking event that 75% or more of the braking is done via the TVs brakes and this is why having a very high GVWR vehicle makes a better braking combo when towing. Let's also not confuse these puny electric activated brakes with sliding magnets against a rotating surface with things like the air brakes found on 18 wheelers and the hydraulic or air brakes that might be found on very high end trailers.

Larry

It sounds to me like you need to adjust your braking setup, or have no clue how much work it actually does. If the TV is doing most the braking then the whole setup is less stable and more prone to jack-knifing. You WANT the trailer stopping its own weight, or more, to keep the TV and trailer inline and braking together. If the TV is doing 75% of the braking then there is something wrong. This is one of the reasons that the timed brake controllers are JUNK, get a proportional or hydraulic/electric controller and trailer braking is completely different. The trailer can be felt holding the truck back as it slows when properly setup.

Vehicles with a higher GVWR are generally heavier and have stiffer/stronger suspension and steering components and that is why they make such great tow vehicles. That does come with bigger/better brakes (generally, but not always) and that does help, but the trailer is responsible for far more than 25% of the braking when setup properly.







This is similar to the 3/4 vs 1 ton SRW debate, there will always be those people that feel the door jam info is 100% gospel despite knowing that they are the same truck with a different sticker (and maybe 1 or 2 parts that really have no bearing on the weight rating difference). Do the research and make your own educated decision, there isn't much to go off of for 1/2 tons as don't share parts, but 3/4+ share a lot of parts and to go stating it's all GVWR or F/R AWR is ignorant to the actual specs.

We just traded in our 2003 Silverado Ext Cab 1500 4.8L. The truck was paid off and nothing majorly wrong with it. IF we wouldn't have bought our TT back in February we would still have it. Yes it towed our TT fine. Our camper is only 4200lbs loaded. Well within the tow ratings of the truck. WE only towed a 17ft tri-hull boat and a pop-up previously with the truck. We have taken out the new camper 4 times to the same campground. Only about 20 miles 1 way. One of them trips our 2 teenage daughters decided to go with us. The camper was packed the same as all the other trips. My two daughters and their clothes only added about 250lbs at the most inside the truck. My husband fought that truck the whole way, with a few choice words along the way also. IT was not pretty. Needless to say, we now have a 2003 Avalanche 2500 8.1L sitting in the driveway as of Saturday afternoon. Yes, it is overkill for towing our 25ft TT but it is safer.

Take the advice from all these guys that are talking about the payload being important. From our experience, it makes a big difference.

The scary part is some Provinces here don't specify when trailer brakes are required. I purchased an enclosed 6 x 12 utility trailer a few years ago with a single 3500lb axle. The trailer weighs 1700lbs empty. I can load another 1800 lbs of cargo for a total of 3500 lbs. No brakes.

If I had spent an additional $1000.00 then I would have had a tandem axle trailer with a total of 7000 lbs (trailer plus payload) and it had brakes.

Now I'm in the process of switching hubs on my trailer to add brakes. I can tell you that any one of my vehicles will stop the extra 3500 lbs, but it takes A LOT FURTHER distance to do so, the brakes smell horrible, and emergency stops just aren't possible.

I was new to towing when I made that purchase, and now I regret it.

I have brakes on my small flatbed and love them, the only problem is running that trailer when unloaded, I must turn the brake controller power output basically to zero, otherwise easy lock-up of the tires on the empty trailer LOL.

edit: (smell not small)