Honda EU2000i question

SoundGuy wrote:

RustyJC wrote:
Insofar as the advisability of bonding Neutral to Ground, I would refer you to the following ARTICLE.

As with anything just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it so. ;) Progressive Industries is a big supporter of the author of The No Shock Zone yet specifically warns against bonding. Anyone who really wants to try to understand the issues involved should take the time to forge through these 41 pages of discussion, wherein not even the "experts" could agree. I have, and personally I'd suggest anyone considering bonding not do so until they have a much clearer understanding of the issues involved.

The 41 page thread -and the experts you reference- is good reading.
For those of us who have been around awhile - the info provided anywhere on the *Tech Issues* forum by "Professor95" is top notch.
(ditto his credentials and interest in helpful assistance)

"Wayne Dohnal", "ExRocketScientist", "MrWizard" and many others are great (and credible) sources.

"oshaprofessor" is/was a johnny come lately "expert", with an agenda - who rode off into the sunset.

There are many informative threads in the search archives.

Besides the 41 page "Grounding Generators" - which also deals with bonding - another excellent thread is "Bonding A Generator".

You and the OP might also like.....
"New 2000i reverse polarity?"

It's only *six* pages, LOL!

BTW - "Rusty JC" - you done good!..:C

.

Quote: Clearly you've not bothered to read through the discussion I linked to earlier in which one poster (Salvo) explains clearly why you're reading "unusual" voltages which I've already pointed out are phantom and thus irrelevant. To whit -..............
_____________________________________________________
Knowing that it would happen, I've been waiting patiently for the other shoe to drop. This is one of the reasons I seldom visit this site except on the rare occasion that I really need advice. My problem was solved, but no matter what the topic or situation, someone always feels the need to chastise or ridicule. PRIORto posting my question, I 'did' read extensively on the topic, including Rusty's Shock Wave recommendation, your 41 page discussion that I only scanned, and various listings on Google. I needed further explanation and posted here. When I posted "Problem Solved", I had been given excellent advice from Rusty, plus read the recommended articles; that was it for me. I did not need to be chastised with "Clearly you've not bothered to read....". Thank you for your advice, I understand everything that you've posted.

avvidclif1 wrote:
If hooked to an RV there is no G-N bond and the PI Surge Protector sees that as a problem if there is not a bond.

Right. Realistically, since my PI power protection system in the RV will not allow power into the RV's power distribution panel with a floating generator neutral (E9 error displayed), I have two choices:

1. Turn the Progressive Industries power protection system off and depend only on the safeties in the Yamaha EF2000is generators to protect the RV while the generators operate with a floating Neutral.

2. Bond Neutral to Ground at the generators with a bonding plug and use the Progressive Industries power protection system in addition to the safeties in the generators.

I choose the second option. It's up to each owner to make his/her own choice, but as has been demonstrated there are "experts" on both sides of the fence insofar as this issue is concerned.

Rusty

For whatever reason some generator mfg's "assume" that their products will be hooked to a house with regular circuits and the G-N bond will be supplied there. Others provide the G-N bond in the generator. If hooked to an RV there is no G-N bond and the PI Surge Protector sees that as a problem if there is not a bond.

clev wrote:
I just completed the bond and PROBLEM SOLVED!!! There is no power on the ground side of the plug and 128 volts on the positive blade, only. Regardless of what others have attempted to post, I know the ground side of the plugs in my RV should not have voltage. This bonding on neutral and ground has solved that problem. I am thankful that I purchased the Surge Guard that alerted me to the problem, and to Rusty for his assistance.

Clearly you've not bothered to read through the discussion I linked to earlier in which one poster (Salvo) explains clearly why you're reading "unusual" voltages which I've already pointed out are phantom and thus irrelevant. To whit -

"The 60V from hot to ground and from neutral to ground are caused by capacitive voltage divider, not inductive coupling. Some electronics (like the converter) have emi capacitors from hot to ground and from neutral to ground. The sum of these two voltages will add up to 120V.

Even though the 60V seems daunting, it is harmless. If you were to measure this voltage with an analog meter you would get about 5V, not 60V. The analog meter has lower input resistance, similar to what the human body has. In other words, if a human grabbed a hold of hot and ground or neutral and ground, they would only "feel" 5V. Of course I'm talking about an inverter that is NOT bonded."

So in fact you've solved a "problem" that isn't ... whatever floats your boat. ;)

As to that response from Progressive Industries their recommendation to bond is offered as a workaround in a situation where their EMS product recognizes a floating neutral as an "error", seeing it as an "open ground", and will thus not pass signal, not whether G > N bonding is a matter of good electrical practice. That issue is what is discussed in that 41 page thread I linked to earlier and as anyone who has bothered to read that discussion will know not even those much more qualified than any of the rest of us can agree upon.

As far as G > N bonding an inverter output is a "good idea" or not the owner's manual supplied with my own 1000 watt sine wave inverter warns specifically against the practice. Since inverter design varies there is thus no sure way to know whether one can or should bond the output but it seems only logical to me to follow the recommendations from the manufacturer which designed and built that particular unit.

This is good info! Thanks to all!

SoundGuy wrote:

RustyJC wrote:
Insofar as the advisability of bonding Neutral to Ground, I would refer you to the following ARTICLE.

As with anything just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it so. ;) Progressive Industries is a big supporter of the author of The No Shock Zone yet specifically warns against bonding. Anyone who really wants to try to understand the issues involved should take the time to forge through these 41 pages of discussion, wherein not even the "experts" could agree. I have, and personally I'd suggest anyone considering bonding not do so until they have a much clearer understanding of the issues involved.

Last year I had this same or similar issue. I contacted Progressive with the following:

I have installed an EMS-HW50C in my 5th wheel.

I also have a Yamaha 3000ISEB generator that I rarely use with the 5th.

However, I have noticed I have to flip the switch to turn off the EMS on the remote monitor of the EMS or I do not get any power into the trailer.

Is there a way to get around this and use my Yamaha and still have the protection of the EMS?

Or because I am solely connected to the Yamaha, do I not need to worry about protection with the EMS?


PI response was such:

Regarding the use of an aftermarket generator, yours is a common problem. It
is caused by the fact that there is no connection between the generator and chassis ground, this is
seen as an open ground by our device. This message has a pdf file attached that will show you how
to solve this problem. Once you do this there will be no need to switch the HW50 off and you will
have full protection again. Thank you for using our product. Regards, Donald Customer Service

The PDF file noted the following:

Special Generator Adapter Instructions
Items Needed:
1 X 15A Male replacement plug (Picture A)
1 X Short 16-12awg wire (1-3”)
Instructions:
1. Open male replacement plug.
2. Identify wire locations (ground, neutral, hot).
3. Connect 16-12awg short wire between neutral (white) and ground (green) inside replacement plug (Picture C).
4. Close plug.
5. Insert new plug/adapter into a free outlet on generator.
Warning: Use only when running on a portable generator. Never use on standard shore power/landline!


An FYI

clev wrote:
When I probed the generator plug, the output was 124 volts on the bottom left while probing either of the other 2 as ground. However, while probing the 2 grounds, it produced 60 volts.

I'll bet you were using a DVM ... try an analogue meter and I'd also bet the N > G reading will be much lower than that 60 volts you were seeing on the DVM. It's a phantom voltage, means nothing, but of course if you bond N > G and they'll then both be at equipment ground. Read this discussion for more detail.

That's great - thanks for reporting your results.

Rusty

I just completed the bond and PROBLEM SOLVED!!! There is no power on the ground side of the plug and 128 volts on the positive blade, only. Regardless of what others have attempted to post, I know the ground side of the plugs in my RV should not have voltage. This bonding on neutral and ground has solved that problem. I am thankful that I purchased the Surge Guard that alerted me to the problem, and to Rusty for his assistance.