GFI issue in bathroom -trips 3 recptaces - will not reset

[Ronaldlee]

I have a situation going on with the bathroom GFI popping and will not reset. It takes out the receptacle in the kitchen and the outside TV. These are on the same side of the coach. Have replaced the GFI 3 times but will not last. This is on a 2006 Fleetwood Excursion. Does anyone have any idea what might be going on?

Thanks for any information you might have....

Ron

[Tinstar]

Ronaldlee wrote:
I have a situation going on with the bathroom GFI popping and will not reset. It takes out the receptacle in the kitchen and the outside TV. These are on the same side of the coach. Have replaced the GFI 3 times but will not last. This is on a 2006 Fleetwood Excursion. Does anyone have any idea what might be going on?

Thanks for any information you might have....

Ron

Well, did you get it fixed?

[sdbounderdiesel]

X2 on checking and/or resetting the L1 or L2 reset buttons on your inverter. I had a similar problem about 2 years back. Was almost ready to start replacing outlets. Based on recommendation of a fellow camper, checked the side panel of my inverter and noticed that one of the two small reset buttons had popped out. Pushed it back in to reset and all was good.

[tropical36]

DrewE wrote:

tropical36 wrote:

DrewE wrote:

A couple years ago I disconnected and removed a couple of old electric heaters from the basement of my house as they were no longer useful (I had no need of heating the basement) and looked to me to be of questionable condition. The circuit, until I shut it off to remove them, had been live with no apparent troubles for many years.

Upon dismantling one, I discovered that an internal wire had broken and shorted against the metal case of the heater, burning a hole in the back of the case and scorching the cinder block behind it a little. It apparently never drew sufficient current to trip the 20A breaker. (This was a 240V circuit, but that doesn't really enter into things at all; the potential between either leg and ground is 120V.) Needless to say, I was very, very glad it was mounted on the block wall and not in a wooden framed partition, where it could very easily have started a house fire.

A GFCI would have tripped in this situation. I assume an AFCI also would have tripped, at least if they do indeed work as advertised. Neither were required in this particular application when the house was built, and indeed I suspect that's still the case for a hardwired heating circuit.

As stated and in this particular instance if would have tripped anyway, if it had 3 conductor wire and if portable, a 3 prong plug, which would have included a wire from the case itself. I mean there is a reason why every circuit in a residential home isn't required to have GFI protection. Now I have seen a large CAT dealer's shop that had nothing but GFI protected outlets throughout the place and with also being the only source of portable power available, but then that's a commercial work area.
Also makes it kind of tough for plugging in a coach that won't accept being GFI fed.

If a coach trips GFCI breakers when plugged in, there's usually some fault that's causing that. It is possible for normal acceptable leakage from various devices and their line filters etc. to leak enough to trip a GFCI, but usually that's not the case. Tracking down faults, particularly neutral-ground faults, can be pretty tricky at times.

With my heater, the heater was properly and solidly grounded. Since it was hardwired it didn't have a three prong plug, of course. The short to the case simply had a high enough impedance (probably due to the paint on the case, some surface rust, and the wire brushing it rather than being firmly connected) that it never consumed sufficient current to trip the breaker.

Probably so, but would have to call it an odd and rare occurrence with your heater.
With GFI's I think they would be better served if they weren't so sensitive and to the point, where many just eliminate them, rather than put up with the sometimes issues of nuisance tripping.
Doing design and building of control panels for outside use, we would install a strip heater inside for keeping out moisture. For the most part, these heaters would trip the GFI and to the point where we would mount them on insulators, as common practice, so there was no ground return available. To test, I would hold on to the end with one hand and before it had a chance to heat up of course and grab on to a known ground with the other hand, with no ill effects. What's mind boggling at times is how one can be shocked with touching a live circuit, when there is no apparent ground return, such as being on a ladder or standing on a wooden floor.

[DrewE]

tropical36 wrote:

DrewE wrote:

A couple years ago I disconnected and removed a couple of old electric heaters from the basement of my house as they were no longer useful (I had no need of heating the basement) and looked to me to be of questionable condition. The circuit, until I shut it off to remove them, had been live with no apparent troubles for many years.

Upon dismantling one, I discovered that an internal wire had broken and shorted against the metal case of the heater, burning a hole in the back of the case and scorching the cinder block behind it a little. It apparently never drew sufficient current to trip the 20A breaker. (This was a 240V circuit, but that doesn't really enter into things at all; the potential between either leg and ground is 120V.) Needless to say, I was very, very glad it was mounted on the block wall and not in a wooden framed partition, where it could very easily have started a house fire.

A GFCI would have tripped in this situation. I assume an AFCI also would have tripped, at least if they do indeed work as advertised. Neither were required in this particular application when the house was built, and indeed I suspect that's still the case for a hardwired heating circuit.

As stated and in this particular instance if would have tripped anyway, if it had 3 conductor wire and if portable, a 3 prong plug, which would have included a wire from the case itself. I mean there is a reason why every circuit in a residential home isn't required to have GFI protection. Now I have seen a large CAT dealer's shop that had nothing but GFI protected outlets throughout the place and with also being the only source of portable power available, but then that's a commercial work area.
Also makes it kind of tough for plugging in a coach that won't accept being GFI fed.

If a coach trips GFCI breakers when plugged in, there's usually some fault that's causing that. It is possible for normal acceptable leakage from various devices and their line filters etc. to leak enough to trip a GFCI, but usually that's not the case. Tracking down faults, particularly neutral-ground faults, can be pretty tricky at times.

With my heater, the heater was properly and solidly grounded. Since it was hardwired it didn't have a three prong plug, of course. The short to the case simply had a high enough impedance (probably due to the paint on the case, some surface rust, and the wire brushing it rather than being firmly connected) that it never consumed sufficient current to trip the breaker.

[tropical36]

DrewE wrote:

tropical36 wrote:

You must remember that GFI's are able to detect very small amounts of current flow and no where near the pain threshold, so I would suggest that any appreciable amount of current flow to ground, would trip the breaker itself, by qualifying as a short circuit. I fully understand their worth, especially with using portable equipment in bathrooms, kitchens and outside receptacles, even though a nuisance for the most part. For other things, they're usually just a PITA, period. Now if all modern outlets and equipment didn't contain the third pin safety ground for metal cases, then it would be an entirely different story.

I suppose that depends upon what you mean by any appreciable amount of current. Leaking a few amps to ground is plenty to be dangerous, both in terms of personal and fire safety, but entirely insufficient to trip a 15A breaker.

A couple years ago I disconnected and removed a couple of old electric heaters from the basement of my house as they were no longer useful (I had no need of heating the basement) and looked to me to be of questionable condition. The circuit, until I shut it off to remove them, had been live with no apparent troubles for many years.

Upon dismantling one, I discovered that an internal wire had broken and shorted against the metal case of the heater, burning a hole in the back of the case and scorching the cinder block behind it a little. It apparently never drew sufficient current to trip the 20A breaker. (This was a 240V circuit, but that doesn't really enter into things at all; the potential between either leg and ground is 120V.) Needless to say, I was very, very glad it was mounted on the block wall and not in a wooden framed partition, where it could very easily have started a house fire.

A GFCI would have tripped in this situation. I assume an AFCI also would have tripped, at least if they do indeed work as advertised. Neither were required in this particular application when the house was built, and indeed I suspect that's still the case for a hardwired heating circuit.

As stated and in this particular instance if would have tripped anyway, if it had 3 conductor wire and if portable, a 3 prong plug, which would have included a wire from the case itself. I mean there is a reason why every circuit in a residential home isn't required to have GFI protection. Now I have seen a large CAT dealer's shop that had nothing but GFI protected outlets throughout the place and with also being the only source of portable power available, but then that's a commercial work area.
Also makes it kind of tough for plugging in a coach that won't accept being GFI fed.

[DrewE]

tropical36 wrote:

You must remember that GFI's are able to detect very small amounts of current flow and no where near the pain threshold, so I would suggest that any appreciable amount of current flow to ground, would trip the breaker itself, by qualifying as a short circuit. I fully understand their worth, especially with using portable equipment in bathrooms, kitchens and outside receptacles, even though a nuisance for the most part. For other things, they're usually just a PITA, period. Now if all modern outlets and equipment didn't contain the third pin safety ground for metal cases, then it would be an entirely different story.

I suppose that depends upon what you mean by any appreciable amount of current. Leaking a few amps to ground is plenty to be dangerous, both in terms of personal and fire safety, but entirely insufficient to trip a 15A breaker.

A couple years ago I disconnected and removed a couple of old electric heaters from the basement of my house as they were no longer useful (I had no need of heating the basement) and looked to me to be of questionable condition. The circuit, until I shut it off to remove them, had been live with no apparent troubles for many years.

Upon dismantling one, I discovered that an internal wire had broken and shorted against the metal case of the heater, burning a hole in the back of the case and scorching the cinder block behind it a little. It apparently never drew sufficient current to trip the 20A breaker. (This was a 240V circuit, but that doesn't really enter into things at all; the potential between either leg and ground is 120V.) Needless to say, I was very, very glad it was mounted on the block wall and not in a wooden framed partition, where it could very easily have started a house fire.

A GFCI would have tripped in this situation. I assume an AFCI also would have tripped, at least if they do indeed work as advertised. Neither were required in this particular application when the house was built, and indeed I suspect that's still the case for a hardwired heating circuit.

[RedRocket204]

I didn't read through the rest of the thread so apologize if this has already been mentioned, but haven't seen the OP mention this.

I had a GFCI outlet in my house that would always trip. Turned of the house electricity and took a look at the circuit to see if it was wired incorrectly. Was wired right. Replaced it with a new GFCI outlet and have not had it trip since. Previous outlet must have went bad or was bad from new, this was an existing house we bought.

Most RV ac 120v outlets are just house supplies. Maybe just switch it out and see if your problem is resolved.

[tropical36]

DrewE wrote:

tropical36 wrote:

Since when has the fridge been on a GFI circuit and something new to me? I mean it's usually bathroom, exterior and maybe the galley..:?

Well, it is (or at least I think it is) on my '98 motorhome. The fridge outlet is located in the semi-exposed area near the lower fridge vent, and as such I think it would be considered a damp location by the NEC. Regardless of whether it's technically required, it seems to me to be a good idea to us a GFCI circuit there since fridge elements are known to get electrically leaky from time to time, and it's far better to proactively detect this and shut off the current than to have a hot skin or similar safety hazard.

I actually would not complain if all circuits in residential wiring were required to be GFCI protected. That, of course, is not required, though it would not be forbidden to do so if one wished.

You must remember that GFI's are able to detect very small amounts of current flow and no where near the pain threshold, so I would suggest that any appreciable amount of current flow to ground, would trip the breaker itself, by qualifying as a short circuit. I fully understand their worth, especially with using portable equipment in bathrooms, kitchens and outside receptacles, even though a nuisance for the most part. For other things, they're usually just a PITA, period. Now if all modern outlets and equipment didn't contain the third pin safety ground for metal cases, then it would be an entirely different story.

[tropical36]

enblethen wrote:
The device does not need to be plugged into a GFCI receptacle. One GFCI receptacle equipped, like most, with a feed through feature. The one GFCI receptacle can protect several down stream receptacles.
Rig manufacturer will at times wire the whole rig on one GFCI receptacle to protect all standard receptacles.
Some appliances like the micro wave and refer (dedicated receptacle)are not required to be GFCI receptacles, but they are wired into one.

Well, you can only put so many outlets on one circuit and to daisy chain GFI protection, all over the place and to where it isn't required, is sub standard and at best, incompetent on the part of the company and/or it's staff. I can fully understand why some outlets are chained together on a single GFI device and it's all about saving money, but some of this, sounds pretty ridiculous.

[DrewE]

tropical36 wrote:

Since when has the fridge been on a GFI circuit and something new to me? I mean it's usually bathroom, exterior and maybe the galley..:?

Well, it is (or at least I think it is) on my '98 motorhome. The fridge outlet is located in the semi-exposed area near the lower fridge vent, and as such I think it would be considered a damp location by the NEC. Regardless of whether it's technically required, it seems to me to be a good idea to us a GFCI circuit there since fridge elements are known to get electrically leaky from time to time, and it's far better to proactively detect this and shut off the current than to have a hot skin or similar safety hazard.

I actually would not complain if all circuits in residential wiring were required to be GFCI protected. That, of course, is not required, though it would not be forbidden to do so if one wished.

[diplomatdon]

Monaco 2001 Diplomat. Fridge plug on bathroom GFI. Same issue with electric when on initial startup.

[enblethen]

The device does not need to be plugged into a GFCI receptacle. One GFCI receptacle equipped, like most, with a feed through feature. The one GFCI receptacle can protect several down stream receptacles.
Rig manufacturer will at times wire the whole rig on one GFCI receptacle to protect all standard receptacles.
Some appliances like the micro wave and refer (dedicated receptacle)are not required to be GFCI receptacles, but they are wired into one.

[tropical36]

DrewE wrote:

mcal63775 wrote:

enblethen wrote:
mcal63775:
He replaced the 120 volt heating element. Common as the wires pass through the sheet metal stack which is sharp and cuts insulation grounding out the element.

So by tech replacing the element, somehow that fixed my issue with the GFI.:h

It wasn't so much an issue with the GFCI itself--it was working as it was designed to do and tripping due to a ground fault. The old element was faulty and leaking current to ground, which is at least a potential safety hazard. Fixing that problem means that there's no longer a ground fault and the GFCI thus doesn't trip.

It's very much the same idea as "fixing" a circuit breaker that keeps tripping due to an overload by removing the overload so it doesn't trip.

Since when has the fridge been on a GFI circuit and something new to me? I mean it's usually bathroom, exterior and maybe the galley..:?

[DrewE]

mcal63775 wrote:

enblethen wrote:
mcal63775:
He replaced the 120 volt heating element. Common as the wires pass through the sheet metal stack which is sharp and cuts insulation grounding out the element.

So by tech replacing the element, somehow that fixed my issue with the GFI.:h

It wasn't so much an issue with the GFCI itself--it was working as it was designed to do and tripping due to a ground fault. The old element was faulty and leaking current to ground, which is at least a potential safety hazard. Fixing that problem means that there's no longer a ground fault and the GFCI thus doesn't trip.

It's very much the same idea as "fixing" a circuit breaker that keeps tripping due to an overload by removing the overload so it doesn't trip.