It's time to winterize...

[Desert_Captain]

I've been watching the forecast and it looks like winter is going to make an appearance on Thursday/Friday. We live in Payson Arizona {about 100 miles north of Phoenix} at 5,000' and so far we have only had one night with a low of 32.

The low for Friday is supposed to be between 22 - 25 with half an inch of snow predicted. My 24' C sits in our driveway and has 30 amps 24/7. Later this morning when it warms up a bit I will open all of the fresh water drains {along with draining the water heater which will get a cup or two of the anti freeze} and then will blow out the water lines with my compressor. I'll add a cup or two to each of the traps {2 sinks and the shower} and put a couple of quarts of pink RV anti freeze in the black and gray tanks.

For nights that are predicted to drop below 30 I will turn on the tank heaters and run my 1300/1500 watt AC space heater on low to hold the interior temps in the 50's. The lower cabinet doors will be propped open for better air flow.

For now our next trip will be to Quartzsite on the backside of January but all that will need to be done is to close the valves, add water and we will be good to go. Naturally we always travel in winter with with a couple of gallons of anti freeze as temps even in the desert can get down into the low 20's - upper teens.

I keep the 55 gallon fuel tank as well as the LP tank full and my AGM house batteries, 2 group 27's, stay fully charged. Only thing left to do after all that is to restock the bar... :C

[rjstractor]

^^^ Good explanation Rick, there are misconceptions about what GFCIs do and don't do. To the OP, I don't see any concerns using a space heater in a motorhome as long as everything is up to par, and with a 30 amp service it likely is. It's no more likely to cause a fire than using a space heater in your house. I don't know what happened in your cousin's case, but in my more than a few years in the fire service, most space heater fires are caused by items too close to the heater. Sometimes they cause issues if there is faulty wiring due to the high current draw (actually happened to me in my house), but if your wiring is good you should be fine using a space heater.

[Rick_Jay]

PartyOf Five wrote:
You're right.. that GFI circuit would only cut power if the wiring overheated- I'll have to ask what they traced his back to, was years ago.

Well, that's not the way GFCI's work. GFCIs (ground fault circuit interrupters) are devices used to protect humans from electrical shock. They DO NOT offer any protection for over current situations. That's what a circuit breaker/fuse is designed to do.

A GFCI will "trip", that is, disconnect the power to the hot line, when the difference current between the hot line and the neutral line exceeds about 5 mA (5 thousands of an amp). Normally, those two lines carry the exact same current. But IF there should be an imbalance more than about 5 mA, the device will open to protect against line-to-ground shocking hazards. That imbalance of current means that somehow current is being returned to the source by a path OTHER THAN the neutral, and it quite likely could be through a person. The 5 mA imbalance is in effect whether the GFCI is passing 1/10 of an amp or 15Amps. It doesn't matter to the device. Only the difference in the current in each line determines whether it will trip or not.

For comparison, possible heart fibrillation can occur at about 100 mA at 60Hz AC. Most 120VAC breakers are 15 or 20 Amps, so lethality has set in long before the main breaker would trip...if it ever tripped. At 5 mA, when the GFCI is set to trip, the person will feel the shock but voluntary muscle control is maintained, so they can let go of whatever is shocking them, though the GFCI should open the circuit in less than 1/10 of a second.

Someone had noted above that the resistance might change in a device and the GFCI would offer protection. That is untrue. The resistance of a heater element varies constantly with temperature. It's "cold" resistance is less than its "hot" resistance. With age electrical characteristics also change, but there's no "shocking" hazard associated with this UNLESS the insulation of the appliance is somehow compromised. A GFCI would not respond to a change in resistance (load) of an appliance or device. The GFCI only reacts to a slight imbalance of current between hot & neutral. Now if the insulation in the appliance had a failure and that allowed the hot line voltage to be contacted by someone, the GFCI should sense that and shut-down the circuit. IF the appliance had a wired ground connection to it's chassis (3-prong circuit), and the insulation fault allowed the line voltage to contact the grounded chassis, THAT would (should) cause the circuit breaker to trip back at the panel as the current would spike high with the short circuit. BUT...the GFCI will probably not do anything in this case.

And just to complete matters, there are circuit breakers which include GFCI's in their construction which reside in the electrical panel. These devices provide over-current protection via the breaker and shock protection via the GFCI.

In general: GFCI's protect people, Circuit Breakers protect the wiring.

Oh, one last thing. GFCI's do, on occasion go bad. They should be tested at least once per month using the "Test" and "Reset" buttons on them. Just be aware that other outlets downstream might also be wired to be protected by that GFCI outlet and testing (tripping) it will disconnect power to those outlets as well. Not funny if the person is jogging on a treadmill plugged into said protected outlet at the time. Well...not funny at the time. NOW it's funny as heck to think back on!!! LOL

Be safe everybody!!!

~Rick

[Desert_Captain]

GD,

After I drained the water heater I stuck my garden hose in and blasted the debris from the anode rod out. After flushing a couple of times I just let it drain, replaced the rod and buttoned it up.

As far as keeping the coach warm {mid fifties} after winterizing and eliminating water and adding RVAF... There are lots of components in a motorhome that do not do well in freezing temperatures. When things freeze they expand/contract. Seals can be compromised and control boards and other sensitive electronics can be damaged. IMHO: it is far better to keep a reasonable temperature and this is easily done. While unusual that forecast for a low of 25 can easily become single digits while you sleep.

As to keeping my fuel tank full it is simple... I always do. Any possible condensation is greatly reduced and the coach is ready to go at a moments notice. As noted we will be taking off in January for a week or so and perhaps sooner than that. Gas prices have risen about 25 cents a gallon since I topped it up after our last trip so that is working out nicely as well.

Even when fully winterized we can be gone in about 15 minutes as all we need do is fill the water tank, load a few groceries and turn the key. This mode also works during fire season as well as short notice for an evacuation could easily take place.

As always... Opinions and YMMV.

:C

[PartyOf_Five]

My cousin burned out half his garage using a space heater to warm it rather than keeping the car batteries on a trickle charge, hence my concern.
You're right.. that GFI circuit would only cut power if the wiring overheated- I'll have to ask what they traced his back to, was years ago.
You've done plenty of preparation, and agree that you're probably better prepared than some of us in colder climes. Kudos for keeping the toys in good shape, so they'll be ready to go when you are 🙂

[Durb]

I winterize the same as you. However, I feel no need to heat the trailer. Never have in 5 years and we sometimes get into the teens. I also make sure my water pump is dry and the outdoor shower is blown out.

[MDKMDK]

Desert Captain wrote:
Yes, there are always at least a couple of gallons of water {added after a thorough flushing in both the gray and black tanks} so adding a couple of quarts of antifreeze is about right. The black and gray tanks are only 20 gallons each and the tank heaters are not huge. I just use them to take the edge off of the low temps.

The space heater is plugged into a GFI and has a kill switch if it is bumped much less knocked over. I had an electrician install the dedicated 30 amps with its own box just below the house breaker panel. Normal snowfall up here is about 23" a year spread over half a dozen 2 and 3 day events, no big deal but... last January we had 2.5' of heavy wet snow with temps in the mid to low teens which while unusual snow {like "stuff} happens".

Here are a couple of shots taken last January:







:E

I pretty much do everything you do, including the space heaters. No water heater tank, so not that, but agree with grit dog, don't bother putting RVAF in it. I don't turn on the tank heaters, but I do empty as much as possible while the weather is still good, and the fresh tank, too. RVAF in the traps, and if some winds up in the holding tanks, so be it, no harm, no foul. No RVAF in the fresh tank, personal preference.
Easier to keep the roof warmer than freezing, to clear the snow on top of my solar panels, than to get up there with a brush. It snows where I live, and often it snows a lot.
Also, if you've got a water filter, mine's under the sink, remove, and drain it. Don't forget to replace it, before you recharge the water system.
You got this....:C

[Lantley]

PartyOf Five wrote:
The unattended space heater doesn't sit well with me, though I'm sure you have it plugged into a GFI.

If I was on shore power and outside, I would prefer to set the furnace at 50 and expend some propane instead.

Everything else sounds great- I don't have a compressor so we just fill the lives with pink stuff, but then again, Da Moose won't be let loose until spring break (we've been winterized about 6 weeks already - 14 degrees here this morning brr!)

Is not the unattended space heater you have to worry about.
If you are afraid to use it when the RV is unoccupied.
I really would not want to use when the RV is occupied.
There are no lives involved in an unoccupied RV. If you feel the need to watch the heater. The heater is unsafe and should not be used in any scenario.

[bobndot]

Rick, i was told that resistance can change in the wiring of an appliance as it ages. The current could take an alternate path to ground through a person when the person touches the appliance.

[Rick_Jay]

PartyOf Five wrote:
The unattended space heater doesn't sit well with me, though I'm sure you have it plugged into a GFI.

Desert Captain wrote:
The space heater is plugged into a GFI...

These statements puzzle me a bit. Would someone mind explaining what the advantage would be of a space heater in an uninhabited RV being plugged into a GFCI?

Just curious.

~Rick

[Grit_dog]

Desert Captain wrote:
My 24' C sits in our driveway and has 30 amps 24/7. Later this morning when it warms up a bit I will open all of the fresh water drains {along with draining the water heater which will get a cup or two of the anti freeze} and then will blow out the water lines with my compressor. I'll add a cup or two to each of the traps {2 sinks and the shower} and put a couple of quarts of pink RV anti freeze in the black and gray tanks.

For nights that are predicted to drop below 30 I will turn on the tank heaters and run my 1300/1500 watt AC space heater on low to hold the interior temps in the 50's. The lower cabinet doors will be propped open for better air flow.


I keep the 55 gallon fuel tank ..... full Only thing left to do after all that is to restock the bar... :C

Yo DC, what's up? Jelly of the snow pic from last year!
So, idk how much experience you have with cold weather and winterizing, as I know you moved up from Tucson, so take this as constructive criticism or advice that will make things easier and learn things you don't need to worry aboot.

Adding AF to water heater? Don't bother. Drain it, put the plug/anode back in and call it a day. If you're worried about the little bit of water in the bottom, don't be. If water has room to expand, it will not break anything. And if it is still bothersome to you, jamb that air chuck in there and blow the tank out. Stand to the side...for obvious reasons.

Same with the tanks. Drain them, pour some AF in the P traps and walk away. Won't hurt to add AF to the tanks, but FW tank is the same, right, could have some water, but not adding it to that tank, per your post. And don't need to.

After doing whatever you consider to be a complete winterization, why are you running a space heater (I doesn't "bother" me in theory like it apparently does to some people, lol)? Just to keep the empty pipes warm? Aint like you're worried about moisture/humidity where you're at.

Lastly, full tank of fuel = old wives tale, seriously. Unless you're prepping for a bug out vehicle or something, run 'er down low on fuel rather than letting a significant qty of gasoline degrade just to have to burn it up later as poor quality fuel. But, if you're leaving in Jan, the fuel won't be old anyways unless it's already old.
In short, condensation risk is minimal to zero, and ethanol blend fuels will eat up any small amount of water "if" there is a little condensation, as quick as you please.

I agree wholly with re-stocking the bar!

[MDKMDK]

That's what living at altitude will do for you. :E

[Desert_Captain]

Yes, there are always at least a couple of gallons of water {added after a thorough flushing in both the gray and black tanks} so adding a couple of quarts of antifreeze is about right. The black and gray tanks are only 20 gallons each and the tank heaters are not huge. I just use them to take the edge off of the low temps.

The space heater is plugged into a GFI and has a kill switch if it is bumped much less knocked over. I had an electrician install the dedicated 30 amps with its own box just below the house breaker panel. Normal snowfall up here is about 23" a year spread over half a dozen 2 and 3 day events, no big deal but... last January we had 2.5' of heavy wet snow with temps in the mid to low teens which while unusual snow {like "stuff} happens".

Here are a couple of shots taken last January:







:E

[PartyOf_Five]

The unattended space heater doesn't sit well with me, though I'm sure you have it plugged into a GFI.

If I was on shore power and outside, I would prefer to set the furnace at 50 and expend some propane instead.

Everything else sounds great- I don't have a compressor so we just fill the lives with pink stuff, but then again, Da Moose won't be let loose until spring break (we've been winterized about 6 weeks already - 14 degrees here this morning brr!)

[MDKMDK]

Does pink RVAF qualify as "liquids in the holding tanks"?
I ask because my tank heaters have a caveat "do not use on empty tanks".
Unless you keep an amount of liquid in the holding tanks when they're sitting in your driveway?