Newmar/Tiffin vs. Coachmen Miranda Select/Fleetwood Bounder

[Andy_F]

We are looking at higher end gassers and we are impressed with the both the Coachmen Miranda Select and Fleetwood Bounder floorplans, amenities, and resulting value. The Coachmen has a fiberglass roof. The Bounder has an upgraded awning among other nice upgrades. It's seems ridiculous to me that neither Newmar nor Tiffin have upgraded their awnings to the "horizontal" out-of-way support arms, such an easy upgrade for them to do if they claim to be worth their much higher prices. Instead, they both have their front vertical awning support arms right over the side passenger window. What in the world is that about???

Are these new type of awnings not the nice upgrade they would appear to be? They sure look like nice on the new Bounders.

It seems to me that the mega-size owners of Fleetwood and Coachmen are seriously threatening the higher end gassers market with impressive upgrades at a much lower price when compared to Newmar and Tiffin who seem to think they can garner a much higher price. Especially in the case of the Bounder which really only lacks a higher gross weight chassis, stack able w/d, and a fiberglass roof.

Thoughts or insights? We are probably 4-5 years away from upgrading up from our TT and 8 years away from a much yearned for law enforcement retirement. I think I am set on this higher end gassers market. Looking forward to 3/4 time RV'ing

[Andy_F]

Gjac wrote:

Bruce Brown wrote:
Some companies put their $$$ into fluff, some put it into quality.

You can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig.

Look past the fluff and I think you'll see the bigger, more important differences. If you can't see them maybe they're just not important to you.

Remember, even Alfa sold some SeeYa's, (arguably the worst MH ever made) so not everyone values the same things.

I agree with Bruce, the salesmen will focus on the outdoor TV's, indoor fireplaces etc. Look at things like CCC, HP/WT ratio, towing capacity, wt distibution etc. Try to understand the construction process of the MH it self, which is harder to find and understand, the salesmen will only use marketing terms rather than eng specs. All MFG's use the same refers, WH's, AC's furnaces, chassis (Ford or Chevy) so to me brand in and of itself is not important. If you search the type of problems folks on here have with the MH itself, sidewall delaminations, leaks, harsh riding chassis, poor assembly, most can be corrected except for major delaminations. Some MFg's like Newmar and Monaco use hung walls which can't delaminate, which to me is a huge discriminator having fixed and lived with this on my current MH. Design features like being able to access your batteries, gensets, and dump and fill areas are more important to me than the flat screen TV's or surround sound. If all these other reqs were met I would choose a TPO or FG roof over EPDM rubber. Having said that my EPDM roof is 20 years old and has never leaked.

This type of info is the "gold" I am looking for. I appreciate it and will ponder it as we start shopping. I would prefer to have a solid and quality "foundation." I went through poor design and quality issues with our Forest River hybrid travel trailer years ago in 2009-2011+. To FR's credit, they took the unit back to the factory in Indiana and did a massive repair and reconditioning for us for free outside of our warranty term. But we'll be spending a huge amount of more money on whatever we buy next so we want quality.

Thank you to the last two posters for your wisdom. I love RV.net for that very reason!

[Gjac]

Bruce Brown wrote:
Some companies put their $$$ into fluff, some put it into quality.

You can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig.

Look past the fluff and I think you'll see the bigger, more important differences. If you can't see them maybe they're just not important to you.

Remember, even Alfa sold some SeeYa's, (arguably the worst MH ever made) so not everyone values the same things.

I agree with Bruce, the salesmen will focus on the outdoor TV's, indoor fireplaces etc. Look at things like CCC, HP/WT ratio, towing capacity, wt distibution etc. Try to understand the construction process of the MH it self, which is harder to find and understand, the salesmen will only use marketing terms rather than eng specs. All MFG's use the same refers, WH's, AC's furnaces, chassis (Ford or Chevy) so to me brand in and of itself is not important. If you search the type of problems folks on here have with the MH itself, sidewall delaminations, leaks, harsh riding chassis, poor assembly, most can be corrected except for major delaminations. Some MFg's like Newmar and Monaco use hung walls which can't delaminate, which to me is a huge discriminator having fixed and lived with this on my current MH. Design features like being able to access your batteries, gensets, and dump and fill areas are more important to me than the flat screen TV's or surround sound. If all these other reqs were met I would choose a TPO or FG roof over EPDM rubber. Having said that my EPDM roof is 20 years old and has never leaked.

[Bruce_Brown]

Some companies put their $$$ into fluff, some put it into quality.

You can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig.

Look past the fluff and I think you'll see the bigger, more important differences. If you can't see them maybe they're just not important to you.

Remember, even Alfa sold some SeeYa's, (arguably the worst MH ever made) so not everyone values the same things.

I should clarify this some; I'm not saying any of these are pigs, it depends on what is important to you. Of the 4 mentioned there are 2 I would consider, the other 2 I wouldn't, not by a long shot, yet some people still buy them. I'm not going to tell them they're wrong, it's their money. For my money there is one clear winner, one contender, and 2 not worth looking at - and my list isn't in the same order as the OPs.

[xctraveler]

RLS7201 wrote:

xctraveler wrote:
If I remember correctly Winnebago has used drop rail frame for some time now. Tiffins used raised rail which gives some storage above the bottom of the rails, not as easy to access as drop rail storage, but more of it:)

"Seems like Winnebago would adjust their chassis structure to catch up with storage space." would be a major re-engineering starting with a different chassis design. They needed the drop rail for their basement AC among other things.

The class A gas chassis uses the standard frame rails, as delivered by Ford, Chevy or Workhorse.

Richard

Right you are, not sure where my brain was when I posted that.

[Andy_F]

RLS7201 wrote:

Andy F wrote:

Gjac wrote:
I am not sure of the year Coachmen Mirada that you are looking at but all the ones I have seen have the small cut out doors like on Class C's where as the others have the full basement storage doors. What size are you looking at? I would also look for pass thru basement storage for storing bikes, ladders, tables etc. Some Miradas, have one large pass thru under the rear bed and that may be enough storage for you depending on how you plan to use the MH. To me storage, water, and battery power are more important than the type of awning. Older Bounders were known for their large fresh water tanks.

Water tank capacity is another great feature for the 2016-2017 Bounders. They have a 100 gallon capacity which I believe is the highest among gassers.

What is Fleetwood doing with the design of the Bounder to get water tank capacity up so high and why aren't Newmar and Tiffin doing the same thing? Is it the "rail design" of the chassis?

Fleetwood has done nothing to the chassis to install a 100 gallon fresh water tank. 100 gallons of fresh water was a feature of the first Bounder in 1986. The rest of the manufactures have been playing catch ever since. The 1986 Bounder was also the first gas class A coach with raised floor for pass through storage and first with heated wet bays. If you can find a copy of John Crean's (Fleetwood's founding father) autobiography (The Wheel and I), it's a great read.

Richard

I added the book to my reading list on Amazon. Sounds interesting. According to Fleetwood's website, the 2015 Bounders had a 85 gallon water tank. They did appear to increase the size to 100 gallons in 2016.

[RLS7201]

Andy F wrote:

Gjac wrote:
I am not sure of the year Coachmen Mirada that you are looking at but all the ones I have seen have the small cut out doors like on Class C's where as the others have the full basement storage doors. What size are you looking at? I would also look for pass thru basement storage for storing bikes, ladders, tables etc. Some Miradas, have one large pass thru under the rear bed and that may be enough storage for you depending on how you plan to use the MH. To me storage, water, and battery power are more important than the type of awning. Older Bounders were known for their large fresh water tanks.

Water tank capacity is another great feature for the 2016-2017 Bounders. They have a 100 gallon capacity which I believe is the highest among gassers.

What is Fleetwood doing with the design of the Bounder to get water tank capacity up so high and why aren't Newmar and Tiffin doing the same thing? Is it the "rail design" of the chassis?

Fleetwood has done nothing to the chassis to install a 100 gallon fresh water tank. 100 gallons of fresh water was a feature of the first Bounder in 1986. The rest of the manufactures have been playing catch ever since. The 1986 Bounder was also the first gas class A coach with raised floor for pass through storage and first with heated wet bays. If you can find a copy of John Crean's (Fleetwood's founding father) autobiography (The Wheel and I), it's a great read.

Richard

[Andy_F]

Gjac wrote:
I am not sure of the year Coachmen Mirada that you are looking at but all the ones I have seen have the small cut out doors like on Class C's where as the others have the full basement storage doors. What size are you looking at? I would also look for pass thru basement storage for storing bikes, ladders, tables etc. Some Miradas, have one large pass thru under the rear bed and that may be enough storage for you depending on how you plan to use the MH. To me storage, water, and battery power are more important than the type of awning. Older Bounders were known for their large fresh water tanks.

Water tank capacity is another great feature for the 2016-2017 Bounders. They have a 100 gallon capacity which I believe is the highest among gassers.

What is Fleetwood doing with the design of the Bounder to get water tank capacity up so high and why aren't Newmar and Tiffin doing the same thing? Is it the "rail design" of the chassis?

[Andy_F]

Gjac wrote:
I am not sure of the year Coachmen Mirada that you are looking at but all the ones I have seen have the small cut out doors like on Class C's where as the others have the full basement storage doors. What size are you looking at? I would also look for pass thru basement storage for storing bikes, ladders, tables etc. Some Miradas, have one large pass thru under the rear bed and that may be enough storage for you depending on how you plan to use the MH. To me storage, water, and battery power are more important than the type of awning. Older Bounders were known for their large fresh water tanks.

I am looking at the 2017 Miranda Select which has full pass thru side hinged baggage doors just like all if the higher end gasserS and DPers.

[RLS7201]

xctraveler wrote:
If I remember correctly Winnebago has used drop rail frame for some time now. Tiffins used raised rail which gives some storage above the bottom of the rails, not as easy to access as drop rail storage, but more of it:)

"Seems like Winnebago would adjust their chassis structure to catch up with storage space." would be a major re-engineering starting with a different chassis design. They needed the drop rail for their basement AC among other things.

The class A gas chassis uses the standard frame rails, as delivered by Ford, Chevy or Workhorse.

Richard

[Gjac]

I am not sure of the year Coachmen Mirada that you are looking at but all the ones I have seen have the small cut out doors like on Class C's where as the others have the full basement storage doors. What size are you looking at? I would also look for pass thru basement storage for storing bikes, ladders, tables etc. Some Miradas, have one large pass thru under the rear bed and that may be enough storage for you depending on how you plan to use the MH. To me storage, water, and battery power are more important than the type of awning. Older Bounders were known for their large fresh water tanks.

[Andy_F]

xctraveler wrote:
If I remember correctly Winnebago has used drop rail frame for some time now. Tiffins used raised rail which gives some storage above the bottom of the rails, not as easy to access as drop rail storage, but more of it:)

"Seems like Winnebago would adjust their chassis structure to catch up with storage space." would be a major re-engineering starting with a different chassis design. They needed the drop rail for their basement AC among other things.

What does above-rail and drop-rail mean? Is the "rail" the frame between the front and rear axles?

[xctraveler]

If I remember correctly Winnebago has used drop rail frame for some time now. Tiffins used raised rail which gives some storage above the bottom of the rails, not as easy to access as drop rail storage, but more of it:)

"Seems like Winnebago would adjust their chassis structure to catch up with storage space." would be a major re-engineering starting with a different chassis design. They needed the drop rail for their basement AC among other things.

[Andy_F]

The other thing we have found in our research is that the Bounder appears to have the greatest exterior storage by far compared to the Winnebago Adventurer and even to the Newmar Canyon Star. The Tiffin Allegro is pretty close in that arena. Seems like Winnebago would adjust their chassis structure to catch up with storage space.

[Andy_F]

RLS7201 wrote:
Bounder is now a "higher end" class A gas coach. Makes me chuckle.
It was introduced in 1986 as an entry level coach. How times have changed.

Richard
95 "lower end" Bounder. GRIN

That's interesting to me that Fleetwood seems to have changed the Bounder in that manner. Seems like the Bounder surpasses the Southwind in amenities in many ways even though the Southwind appears to be marketed as the top-of-the-line gasser for Fleetwood.

[RLS7201]

Bounder is now a "higher end" class A gas coach. Makes me chuckle.
It was introduced in 1986 as an entry level coach. How times have changed.

Richard
95 "lower end" Bounder. GRIN