Upgrade to Gas or Diesel Class A?

[Schnabel]

So we are currently on Motorhome #4, a 1999 Itasca Suncruiser purchsed used in 2006.
Overall we have been happy with the RV, but looking to go a bit newer to bridge to the final "retirement" coach in about 10 years.
I have my eye on 2 motorhomes, both of which would suit our needs well from a layout standpoint. One is a 2005 Pace Arrow 37ft (Workhorse chassis) and the other is a Holiday Rambler Ambassador 38Ft (Freightliner chassis with 330HP engine).
I assume the Pace Arrow will drive and handle very similar to my Suncruiser, but I have never driven a Diesel Pusher so I'm curious what people with experience in both would pick. Selling price for the Ambassador is about $15K more which seems very reasonable.
So the main questions I have:
1.- Is the ride quality and noise significantly better in the Diesel given the rear engine and air bag suspension? Michigan roads are awful and the Suncruiser often feels like it will just implode on bad pavement.
2.- Is maintenance cost a real concern? I have had no issues with the Ford chassis/engine on my Suncruiser and I do my own oil changes, so maintenance of the powertrain has been minimal cost.
Appreciate any thoughts.

[Canadian_Rainbi]

We went from a 29' gas to a 32' DP in 2008, into a 2002 Horizon Itasca on a Freightliner chassis and Allison 6 speed trans.

I have Post Polio Syndrome and my legs fatigue easily. The DP is MUCH easier to drive esp long distances. The cruise control works so well with the exhaust brake I spend much less time braking and accelerating.

Air brakes are much more effective though take a bit of relearning. Take an air brake course even if not a requirement in your state.

Air brakes are much less prone to failure than hydraulic brakes and have a somewhat fail safe built in; Rear brakes are held ON with very strong springs and use air pressure to release them. Therefore a major air loss will apply the rear brakes. Air brakes usually fail through bad or no maintenance: badly adjusted slack adjusters and water in air tanks and lines. Both of these are largely automatic but do need some attention.

Much more comfortable to drive.

Parts can be expensive. The injector pump was $2500.00 though failure is fairly rare. One poster told me that the injector pump for his rig cost him twice that. Oil changes are usually once a year, though they hold a lot of oil.

My air intake (near the roof) is equipped with a vacuum gauge which shows restriction in the air filter. I had it changed this spring even though the gauge showed no restriction just because I had a spare, bought for an Alaska and round North America trip 6 years ago and never used. The mechanic said that the old filter showed very little obstruction.

Brakes will last for years.

Overall; DP probably cost more to maintain but are much more drivable. I would not want to give ours up.

[Ruf-n-it]

We went from a 2007 Winnebago Sightseer 35J (Ford chassis) to a 2016 Winnebago 36G and the difference in noise and ride is night and day. First the Sightseer is built on a truck chassis an no matter what you do it's still a truck. The Forza is on a Freight liner custom chassis and is much smoother ride. The roads that used to near jar my fillings out are hardly noticeable. Also the engine is in the rear and it is barely audible when cruising down the highway. With the improved ride there are very few rattles and squeaks. The other big advantage is the basement storage. It was slightly over double between my 2 units. This is basically because you have pass through storage between the axles because there isn't a drive shaft going from front to back. The 340 HP Cummins power plant seems to be very adequate. While more money we feel it was well worth it.

[rgatijnet1]

Schnabel wrote:
So we are currently on Motorhome #4, a 1999 Itasca Suncruiser purchsed used in 2006.
Overall we have been happy with the RV, but looking to go a bit newer to bridge to the final "retirement" coach in about 10 years.
I have my eye on 2 motorhomes, both of which would suit our needs well from a layout standpoint. One is a 2005 Pace Arrow 37ft (Workhorse chassis) and the other is a Holiday Rambler Ambassador 38Ft (Freightliner chassis with 330HP engine).
I assume the Pace Arrow will drive and handle very similar to my Suncruiser, but I have never driven a Diesel Pusher so I'm curious what people with experience in both would pick. Selling price for the Ambassador is about $15K more which seems very reasonable.
So the main questions I have:
1.- Is the ride quality and noise significantly better in the Diesel given the rear engine and air bag suspension? Michigan roads are awful and the Suncruiser often feels like it will just implode on bad pavement.
2.- Is maintenance cost a real concern? I have had no issues with the Ford chassis/engine on my Suncruiser and I do my own oil changes, so maintenance of the powertrain has been minimal cost.
Appreciate any thoughts.

Since you do your own maintenance, the costs for labor will be the same, but the cost for materials will be much higher for the DP than the Workhorse 8.1 engine. Most normal 8.1 maintenance items can be picked up at Autozone.
There are some here who have said, and I guess the actually believe, that gas coaches need the oil changed every 3000 miles. That is ignorance on their part about a gas engine. They seem to think that ONLY diesel engines can have an oil analysis, which is false. Oil changes for a gas engine can be extended just like a diesel engine for as long as necessary, based on the oil analysis results.
There are also some that think that the Workhorse 8.1 engine cannot climb hills with a DP. Again, pure fantasy. With the lower gear ratio in the differenctial that comes on the WH chassis, it will climb hills with any diesel, from my own experience in the Western mountains, and then with the overdrive of the Allison transmission you are also able to get close to, if not better mileage than some diesel engines. I have owned both gas and diesel motor homes and most of what some people are claiming are based on some old gas coaches, and not the WH chassis that you are talking about.
In reality, both engines will last longer than you will and the drivetrain on both will perform well. If something does break on either chassis, you can expect the diesel parts to be much more expensive than the WH chassis. A radiator for the Freightliner may cost $5000 and a radiator for the WH may be around $1000.
You will spend much more time parked and enjoying the interior of your coach than you will driving it. The interior layout/suitability should be your primary concern. When driving the DP will be quieter from engine noise, but the wind noise is about the same, from my own experience. The gas engine will be louder on a long hill climb, which from my own experience out West amounts to less than 5% of the time. The rest of the time you are just cruising along and the engine noise on a WH is negligible. Interior quality and furniture is about the same on both coaches, with the HR being a Monaco product. If there is only a $15K difference, I have to figure that the HR is much older than the Pace Arrow. This means that the HR furniture is older as well as the other systems like the AC, electronics, water pumps, water heater, etc. These items are readily available for either coach but you have to assume that the newer systems will last longer. The $15K difference in price would probably cover the costs for ALL maintenance on the WH chassis for life. It is a sturdy chassis that needs minimal care to last a long time.
It is your choice but I would still place floor plan suitability at the top of my list and the power plant down a few notches.

[sushidog]

Just for cost comparisons, I had the 6.4l diesel engine on my 08 Ford go out on me at 147k miles. A rebuilt motor from Ford I around $15k + installation (and that doesn't include the $2k worth of turbos). They quoted me 47 hrs labor for the job, as the cab needs to be pulled. My truck isn't worth $20 grand so I'll be junking it. I could get a rebuilt long block and have it installed for about half of this, but there's no guarantee it won't fail prematurely too. And yes, I did the all the proper maintenance at the recommended intervals. Sometimes things just break.

Diesels produce much more power, more efficiently, but if their high maintenance costs are factored in they are not any cheaper to operate than gas. For comparison, a good, used low-mileage Ford V-10 gas motor, like many Class A's use, can be had for around $3k. I'm not saying it's better, but it's quite a bit cheaper when it does eventually break.

My next RV will be a 32-35 ft. Class A gasser, but if I were going with a heavy 40 footer, pulling a fair sized toad, the logical choice would be to go with a DP. Size matters.

The suspension, handling and brakes on a late model mid-grade gasser is quite a bit better than it was 10-15 yrs ago, but hasn't practically everything improved quite a bit since then? A test drive of the model you are considering will tell you what you need to know.

Chip

[fcooper]

schnabel wrote:
and the other is a Holiday Rambler Ambassador 38Ft (Freightliner chassis with 330HP engine).

It would be interesting to know the model year. My Holiday Rambler Endeavor is a 2000 on a Freightliner Chassis. During the 2000 build year, it is my understanding that Monaco began to build the Holiday Rambler on their own chassis instead of purchasing chassis from Freightliner. I've not seen a Holiday Rambler on a Freightliner chassis with a model year later than 2000.

For what it's worth, I've had both a gas model and the DP. Love the DP.

Fred

[dubdub07]

NeverHome2 wrote:
Certainly the biggest advantage in a gas class A is low acquisition price. After that all advantages tilt to the DP. Higher maintenance costs are farcical, consider changing oil every 3000 miles compared to every 15,000 miles or longer. When climbing a hill the gasser screams and is very noisy, the DP just walks right up the hill without slowing or screaming. Ride cannot be compared to a heavier coach on air ride versus a lighter coach on springs. A DP has better appointments, more luxury, better comfort systems, and nicer layouts.

There really is no way to compare them they are not the same thing and are apples versus oranges. It really comes down to what you can afford or are willing to spend.

I asked for a DP only thread as there is a HUGE difference in gas coaches vs diesel pushers and the answer was a (new America) don't want to hurt anyone's feelings thing. I was not trying to be exclusive, just to narrow the information into catagories that are applicable. Reading about a gasser for me (which is a majority) is like reading General RV topics threads.

WW

[dubdub07]

JimM68 wrote:

dezolen wrote:
Some of the newer gas coaches can ride almost as quiet and smoothly as the DP's and have similar layouts. All depends where you spend the majority of your time whether driving or parked. As you know maintenance is a breeze and very cheap. If you need to tow over #5000 a DP is what you need. We had looked into a 2008 DP Charleston and ended up with a brand new gas coach for the same money. No regrets whatsoever. So far 3 oil changes in 3 years at 30$ a crack. Nothing more. Be sure to check out Tiffin and Newmar. Top choices IMHO

I hate it when I "have to" jump in without reading the whole thread.

Posts like these come from happy gasser owners who've never driven a DP...
Not that this is a bad thing, and certainly no offense intended...
But...
Gasser's put the powerplant, and any noise or disturbance it might create, right exactly between you and your DH....
And gassers ride on leaf springs. Like cars did... in the 1950's? Like Ups trucks do...

There really is no comparison between any front engine gas motorhome and any rear engine diesel air suspension air brake motorhome. They are that different

I read on here a profound description of a DP. A DP has two motors, one in the front (genny) and one in the back to propel the coach. When driving, the motor in use is in the back, 40ft away and out of earshot. When sleeping, the motor in the front is on, 40ft away and out of earshot.

How true this was and is and makes a huge difference. Ask a gasser owner if he/she has any wind noise and I bet they don't know. I can hear the wind as it rushes over the coach at 75mph. Drove both and there is no comparison, really.

WW

[dezolen]

LOL if I could get a DP for 15,000 difference it would be a no brainer. Trouble is they are closer to 100,000$ difference from what we looked at and we have seen them all.

[time_to_go_now]

Schnabel wrote:
1.- Is the ride quality and noise significantly better in the Diesel given the rear engine and air bag suspension? Michigan roads are awful and the Suncruiser often feels like it will just implode on bad pavement.
2.- Is maintenance cost a real concern? I have had no issues with the Ford chassis/engine on my Suncruiser and I do my own oil changes, so maintenance of the powertrain has been minimal cost.
Appreciate any thoughts.

To address your two questions:

1. Assuming the diesel is in the rear (my diesel engine is in the front!) and assuming it has air ride suspension (mine has leaf springs), then yes, the ride quality and noise reduction is significant. A much smoother and quieter ride.

2. No, it is not a REAL concern. The fuel filter and oil filter for my 6.7L Cummins diesel are much more expensive than the Fram filter for my old Ford V-10. And, I now use 16 quarts of oil instead of 6. But, that is not a REAL big deal. I have had very few other issues. But, diesel mechanics are more expensive. And, you can probably do more repairs on your own with a gas rig than a diesel.

My opinion, all else being equal, I would spend the $15k additional to get the diesel. Would not even think twice.

Good luck.

[NeverHome2]

Certainly the biggest advantage in a gas class A is low acquisition price. After that all advantages tilt to the DP. Higher maintenance costs are farcical, consider changing oil every 3000 miles compared to every 15,000 miles or longer. When climbing a hill the gasser screams and is very noisy, the DP just walks right up the hill without slowing or screaming. Ride cannot be compared to a heavier coach on air ride versus a lighter coach on springs. A DP has better appointments, more luxury, better comfort systems, and nicer layouts.

There really is no way to compare them they are not the same thing and are apples versus oranges. It really comes down to what you can afford or are willing to spend.

[Gjac]

I suggest that you read the sticky by Johnny T at the beginning of this fourm he goes into great detail between gas motorhomes and diesel motorhomes. For me if I was going to buy one in the size you are looking at I would look more towards a DP. I don't think there is a black or white answer that is right for everyone. I would think how you will use the MH first before you determine size and where you would do most of your camping.

[mike_brez]

Four years with a gas class c and fourteen years with a gas PaceArrow class A.
One year with a diesel class A night and day differance. Would never go back to gas.

[JimM68]

I've had both. first was a 1999 Fleetwood Pace Arrow. single slide, 275HP V10, 36 feet long. Top of the line gasser, but old (they have gotten better...)

Went to our monaco Knight in 2010, bought her 2 years old. The difference from the drivers seat is unreal. The quiet. The smoothness. The engine brake.

Some of the posts above were comparing DP's to diesel OTR trucks.
A more fitting comparison would be comparing UPS trucks to greyhound busses...

[JimM68]

dezolen wrote:
Some of the newer gas coaches can ride almost as quiet and smoothly as the DP's and have similar layouts. All depends where you spend the majority of your time whether driving or parked. As you know maintenance is a breeze and very cheap. If you need to tow over #5000 a DP is what you need. We had looked into a 2008 DP Charleston and ended up with a brand new gas coach for the same money. No regrets whatsoever. So far 3 oil changes in 3 years at 30$ a crack. Nothing more. Be sure to check out Tiffin and Newmar. Top choices IMHO

I hate it when I "have to" jump in without reading the whole thread.

Posts like these come from happy gasser owners who've never driven a DP...
Not that this is a bad thing, and certainly no offense intended...
But...
Gasser's put the powerplant, and any noise or disturbance it might create, right exactly between you and your DH....
And gassers ride on leaf springs. Like cars did... in the 1950's? Like Ups trucks do...

There really is no comparison between any front engine gas motorhome and any rear engine diesel air suspension air brake motorhome. They are that different