Max Payload vs. Pin Weight (Ford, Ram, Chevy)

[bowler1]

Hi,
I recently bought a new 5th wheel and truck to tow it. I got a 40 foot Open Range with a 2500 pound pin weight.

I was looking at fairly loaded SRW long bed diesels from Ford, Chevy and Ram. I ended up getting the Ram due to the much higher payload. The Fords and Chevys that I was looking at had max payloads (from the door sticker) around 3400 pounds, while the similarly equipped Ram had a pay load of 4200 pounds. My thought was that with the camper and truck fully loaded I would be pushing up against the max payload of the Chevy and Ford (even though I liked them a bit better).

So my setup now, even when fully loaded, will provide me close to 1000 pounds of margin I would guess. Theoretically should my truck do a better job of towing my trailer given that I am significantly below the max payload vs the Chevy or Ford that would be right up near their max? I would guess that would be the case from a logical perspective.

My other question is what would make there be such a big difference in payload between the Ford/Chevy and the Ram? For similarly equipped models (and all long bed, quad cab diesels with automatic transmissions) the difference is about 800 pounds. That is not a small difference. What would be so drastically different with the Ram to justify such a higher rating? Is there something inherint in their design (solid front axel for instance) that makes it more capable of hauling more weight? I assume that the three trucks are all rated against the same standards.


Thanks
Matt

[Grit_dog]

JIMNLIN wrote:
The trucks gvwr based yellow payload sticker is not used to determine a trucks legal/safe payload.
Higher in the bed payloads will come from the higher RAWR/tire load numbers

When using a truck makers weight specs for a certain package you will have to find the same package with the same weight specs on the lot for comparisons. Other wise your comparing apples vs oranges.

Don't bit into this yellow tire placard payload sticker thing for being the safe way to go. As has been said and shown many times before a gvwr based payload when used in the bed can and has overloaded some trucks RAWR. You sure don't want to overload a axle/tire/wheel or a rear spring pack.
Nothing wrong with the right logic.

Lol, if the door stickers aren’t conservative enough for you, you should sell your truck and stay home where it’s safe!!

[Huntindog]

My only thought is that a 40' fiver is going to be difficult to keep the pin weight as low as the OP thinks.
I'm thinking more around 4000# pin wt.

[bowler1]

That makes sense. Thanks

[Cummins12V98]

bowler1 wrote:
Ok. Thanks. I will take a look at the rear axle rating. I guess there is a chance I am pushing it there. But regardless of the rear axle rating if you’re over the max payload then you are over weight right? So in my case I am within max payload but need to check the rear axle rating. With the other trucks I looked at I would have been just at or over payload so regardless of their rear axle rating I would be overweight. But I would doubt you could bust the payload and not the axle rating

Next option would be a dually I guess. But I don’t plan to get another truck

Matt

"payload" includes the front axle capacity, you would be lucky to add 150# to your front axle with a 15k 5er.. ALL that matters is what the rear axle can carry!!!

[BenK]

IMO....first decided whether you believe in OEM ratings o not.

If not, then an academic discussion....

If yes, then gather your OEM’s ratings info, learn how this system works and the biggie...weigh your TV both empty with you in it and fully loaded ready to go RV’ing

The most important CYA embedded into their ratings...is the ability of the TV’s setup to manhandle the Mr Murphy moment. That also has embedded into this whole thing are the fine print (legal reviewed) that defines the boundaries for their ratings

Other embedded stuff are things like warranty, longevity, etc, etc, etc

Of course...things won’t break instantly if over their published ratings...but it will sooner and NOT perform (manhandle} during a Mr Murphy moment

Bottom line...makes no matter how many “sure you can do it”...”been doing it for years with no problems”...etc stack of copies in your glove box...there is only one person responsible for the setup and that is the driver...

[bowler1]

Ok. Thanks. I will take a look at the rear axle rating. I guess there is a chance I am pushing it there. But regardless of the rear axle rating if you’re over the max payload then you are over weight right? So in my case I am within max payload but need to check the rear axle rating. With the other trucks I looked at I would have been just at or over payload so regardless of their rear axle rating I would be overweight. But I would doubt you could bust the payload and not the axle rating

Next option would be a dually I guess. But I don’t plan to get another truck

Matt

[JIMNLIN]

The trucks gvwr based yellow payload sticker is not used to determine a trucks legal/safe payload.
Higher in the bed payloads will come from the higher RAWR/tire load numbers

When using a truck makers weight specs for a certain package you will have to find the same package with the same weight specs on the lot for comparisons. Other wise your comparing apples vs oranges.

Don't bit into this yellow tire placard payload sticker thing for being the safe way to go. As has been said and shown many times before a gvwr based payload when used in the bed can and has overloaded some trucks RAWR. You sure don't want to overload a axle/tire/wheel or a rear spring pack.
Nothing wrong with the right logic.

[bowler1]

Hi I am the OP,
Thanks again for the comments. Here are some responses / additional info:

My source of data is the door sticker inside the drivers door jam. That is the only reliable source of data for legal max payload.

I actually wanted a Ford, but my final check before buying was the door sticker. What I found was that all the ones I looked at had a MUCH lower door sticker weight than I had been led to believe based on the literature and research I had done.

This is for a long bed, diesel, 4x4, quad cab in the Lariat package (which has a lower payload than the less decked out models).

Some of the Rams had lower payloads too, but the one I found was at 4200. Given that my loaded weight and king pin would be maybe 3400 or more I thought this was a safter bet.

Interestingly enough, when I reasearched this subject on this forum prior to buying either the trailer or truck the vast majority of folks told me I needed a dually or was very close to needing one to tow the 14k 5th wheel I was looking at. All said that was a lot of trailer for a SRW 3500 truck. Seems now that several people in this post are telling me not to even pay attention to the pay load and just go for whatever I like.

But I can't imagine buying a new truck specifically to tow this camper and getting one that was at or over the payload. That would seem like a bad decision. Different story if I already had the truck perhaps.

As to my question about "towing better" I thought it was implied that I meant from a handling perspective. Of course it is not going to be faster, brake better, etc. However, whatever is making the payload higher (presumably suspension, frame or lower curb weight) might imply better handling. Maybe not....but from an engineering perspective there is a bell curve for performance and most things are designed to perform best within a couple of standard deviations of the middle of the bell curve. Once you are out at the tails you usually see less than optimal performane. That was the logic I was applying.

Just like I would assume that given the same trailer that would max or almost max out a 2500 that the 3500 would handle better with it.

Again, just the logic I applied.

The bigger question though to me is what makes the payload capacity so much different. BTW that was the version of the Ford with the highest GVWR package and not one lowered to supposedly negate taxation issues in some states due to the truck's weight rating as some people claim the manufacturers do

Matt

[3TV]

I don't know where bowler1 is getting his payload capacities for the various brands. I just bought a 2019 F-350 SRW shortbed truck a week ago, and I looked at payload capacities on all three brands before purchasing. I think there are several places you can find the specs from. But from the specs I found, all three brands in this configuration, with the highest GVWR option, had almost the exact same payload capacity, which was about 3900 lbs.

I've owned several GM diesels, and several more Ram diesels, but my last Ford pickup truck was a 1993 F-350 with a 460 ci gas engine. I went with Ford this time because I liked the way it drove the best of the three. There wasn't enough difference between brands to matter when it came to payload capacity.

[Grit_dog]

Some more laughable responses, like 11,000lb truck and all the weight cops.
Any of the big 3 1 ton srw trucks will handle the load very similarly. Strictly a gvw rating thing.
Consider this. GM and Ram use the same rear axles and the rest of the trucks are the same as a dually (save for the 11.8 in the dooley rams...for the nit pickers) but with less tires.
Buy the brand you want, not the door sticker you think you need.

[KD4UPL]

No, your truck will not tow better just because you have some room left to hit your GVWR. By the way, 800 pounds really isn't that much when we're talking about an 11,000 pound or so truck towing a 12,000 pound or so trailer.
How the truck "tows" is very subjective. Are you talking about ride, handeling, acceleration, braking, etc? All the trucks are different; different HP, torque, transmissions, gearing, tires, etc. Drivers are different too. Some loaf along at 58 mph to save fuel and some have limited vacation time and drive 75 mph to get to a destination and back in a given time frame.
I pay a lot more attention to the reputation and reliability of the drivetrain, the cab and bed configuration, and the option package the truck has rather than a couple hundred pounds of payload. Payload on the sticker is based on the GVWR anyway and most 3500 trucks are capable of hauling/towing above their GVWR. I know mine do.
Some models of heavy duty trucks can even be ordered with different GVWR just to dodge various DOT regulations. The trucks are the same but they'll put a different GVWR number on there for you. My 2015 Chevy 3500 at work normally has a GVWR of 11,500 but it was ordered with a 10,000 sticker so it was not subject to some DOT regs.

[goducks10]

jkwilson wrote:
Not sure what exactly you have, but as far as I know for that kind of payload a Ram has to be a gas engine, not a Diesel. IIRC the max payload on a Diesel is a little below 3200lbs.

Nope, Ram 3500 6.7 SRW are consistently near or above 4000 lbs. When I get my oil changed at the local Ram dealer it takes about 1 hour. I spend part of that time grazing the lots looking at trucks. Every 3500 SRW I see has 4000+/- lbs on the door sticker.

[MFL]

Jim is correct, while the payload of the Ram may be higher, the RAWR/tire rating is the deciding factor to carry pin wt of a FW. This is why I mentioned the big 3 having similar capability, when the rear axle is carrying the added load.

Jerry

[JIMNLIN]

Not so fast on using some of the new gen trucks GVWR for figuring payloads....especially a 3500 SRW Ram with 12300 lb GVWR. Figuring payloads with this truck can over load the trucks 7000 RAWR...tire/wheel and rear spring pack. This is the folly of using a GVWR to figure payloads in the bed of a pickup truck.


There is no gaz or diezul 3500 SRW Ram that can carry 4200 lbs in the bed of the truck without exceeding its 7000 lb gvwr. Doing the simple math may show the truck rear axle may weigh 3300-3500 lbs. Now add 4200 lbs in the bed as your payload = up to 7700 lbs.

Ford...GM...Ram all have 7000/7050 or 7230 RAWR and all will have similar in the bed payloads so depending on cab/2wd vs 4wd/etc about the most in the bed payloads can run in the 3500-3600 lbs range.

Always weigh your trucks front and rear axles separately that way you will know how much load is on each axle/wheel/tire/spring pack.

[donn0128]

Your making an awful lot of assumptions here. Why not load the truck like your going on a trip and drive across a set of scales for the REAL weight? I think you will be surprised. The sticker on the drivers door post gives you the MFG GVWR. Subtracting your TRUE scaled weight from the MFG GVWR will give you a real honest max cargo carrying capacity. Thats what you have to work with.