14F freezer is good enough

[Almot]

Have been having these doubts for some time, 0F/-18C "recommended" by FDA and similar Canadian health authority, while my meat and fish remain quite hard and I am still alive with freezer temps ranging from 10F/-12C to 7F/-14C.

So I did some research.

At 14F/-10C fatty fish remains edible for 2 months, and lean fish - 3 months: blue line on the chart. 2 months seems like a long trip to me.

Was more difficult to find data for frozen meat, though here is a 60-days study of buffalo meat at 40F/4C and 14F/-10C, long and rather technical article. They found that 4 days in fridge and 30 days in freezer at 0F/10C is still good. See the Conclusion. From the tables it follows that the microbial activity in freezer at 14F/-10C was DECREASING with time, all the way to the day 60.

So, - forget FDA guidelines 0F/18C. These are temps that will keep your food from spoiling indefinitely. You are not going to live indefinitely. If your fridge keeps 40F/4C, and freezer 14F/-10C - this is enough for most vacation trips and more than enough for a weekend trip. Don't lose your sleep over that. Manufacturers have detailed specs that consumers don't usually see - like max 0F in the center of freezing chamber and max 14F at the door, and even those max values you might not get in real life. I am not talking about deep freeze chests that can do -22F, those are different.

[westend]

Almot wrote:
Filling the fridge or freezer volume with items heavier than air to reduce the energy draw is a myth. Cold air moving out and warm air moving in has very little effect because the volumetric heat capacity of water is 4,000 times higher than that of air. In other words, to change the temperature of 1 cu.ft water by 1 degree takes 4,000 times more energy than of 1 cu.ft of air. And it costs even more to go through phase transition, i.e. turn water into ice.

And then you have to continue spending more to keep this ice mass frozen, because the higher is the heat capacity and the higher is the difference between the inside and outside temperature, the more energy you need.

To reduce the energy draw, you have to either reduce the temperature difference or reduce the volume. One way to reduce the volume is to fill it with foam peanuts in ziplock bags, though I wouldn't bother because the savings on cooling less air are insignificant.

I don't have a problem with understanding your first paragraph but help me out with the next two, please?

If I set my freezer to a set temperature and were to fill it with water, turn on the cooling unit and wait for ice, won't it take less electrical energy later because of the lesser running times than if it was filled with cold air? I'm having a hard time figuring why the 12 cu. ft. mass of ice won't aid in keeping the freezer cold instead of the mass of 12 cu. ft. of air.

Everything I've read says to keep the interior of the chest fuller for less energy consumption.

[Almot]

pnichols wrote:

Huuuuhh??

In all due respect ... you kindof have to be kidding, right?

No kidding. It reads the temperature of the air, and this is changing quickly when you open the door, especially in freezer and/or if placed near the door. Expect 2F-3F error . When you close the door again, it restores quickly to the set up temperature, because the air takes very little energy to cool. Digital thermometers are more accurate because they measure with the door closed, and you can place it where you think the readings are most representative, no matter how deep inside this spot is.

[pnichols]

Almot wrote:
The readings change quickly while you peek at them.

Huuuuhh??

In all due respect ... you kindof have to be kidding, right?

The red columns do not "shoot up" during the 3 seconds it takes me to glance at one to see if everything's OK.

It's not rocket science having your colds be cold enough. All I want is when it's 100 degrees outside for the fresh food's red column to be around 38 degrees F or slightly below when I glance at it and the freezer's red column to be below, say, 20 degrees when I glance at it.

That's good enough for my ultra-food-quality-condition-sensitive DW ... so it's probably good enough for myself.

[Almot]

pnichols wrote:
Hmmmm .... I just hang a small classic thermometer made for RV refrigerator shelves (bought from Camping World) in both the fresh food and freezer sections of our RV's refrigerator.

No batteries to ever change. I just peek at them whenever I open the freezer or fresh food section. This method couldn't be simpler.

This method is not accurate. The readings change quickly while you peek at them. A red liquid thermometer you can put into glass of water, then the readings will be stable. This wouldn't be practical, though you could do it to check the temps once in a while. In a freezer it has to be placed between two frozen items.

[Almot]

Filling the fridge or freezer volume with items heavier than air to reduce the energy draw is a myth. Cold air moving out and warm air moving in has very little effect because the volumetric heat capacity of water is 4,000 times higher than that of air. In other words, to change the temperature of 1 cu.ft water by 1 degree takes 4,000 times more energy than of 1 cu.ft of air. And it costs even more to go through phase transition, i.e. turn water into ice.

And then you have to continue spending more to keep this ice mass frozen, because the higher is the heat capacity and the higher is the difference between the inside and outside temperature, the more energy you need.

To reduce the energy draw, you have to either reduce the temperature difference or reduce the volume. One way to reduce the volume is to fill it with foam peanuts in ziplock bags, though I wouldn't bother because the savings on cooling less air are insignificant.

[pnichols]

Hmmmm .... I just hang a small classic thermometer made for RV refrigerator shelves (bought from Camping World) in both the fresh food and freezer sections of our RV's refrigerator.

No batteries to ever change. I just peek at them whenever I open the freezer or fresh food section. This method couldn't be simpler.

HOWEVER, on the dash in the cab of our motorhome I also have a voltmeter mounted that shows whether or not the RV refrigerator is getting 12 volts from the coach batteries. I learned the hardway to have this readout right on the dash after driving down the road aways once - after turning off battery power to the coach while gassing up several miles back and then forgetting to turn it back on before pulling out of the gas station! (This voltmeter also of course shows engine alternator output voltage being maintained on the coach's 12 volt system when underway.)

[westend]

Almot wrote:

westend wrote:
We used to use this same "water/ice-packing" for freezing fresh water fish. It worked extremely well.

Fish is more than 50% water, I don't see any need to freeze it in water. It will freeze nicely and with an ice crust, on its own. The only result you achieve with water/ice packing is that it will take longer to freeze and more energy to maintain the extra mass of ice.

Well this was for home freezing and not for harvesting from a distance far away. I live in between lakes now and used to live on one (MN, Land of 10,000). The water packing seemed to keep the fish fresher tasting and there was no risk of freezer burn so fish could be stored longer.

It would seem to me that once I have any mass frozen, it would aid in keeping freezer temp at it's set point. In our chest freezer we will sometimes throw in one gallon containers of water to take up space and add mass. The frozen water containers also are great for cooler use or for cooling down the RV fridge. Yes, we are paying for the initial cooling when we put them in the chest but I think it aids in actual runtime of the freezer.

[Almot]

westend wrote:
We used to use this same "water/ice-packing" for freezing fresh water fish. It worked extremely well.

Fish is more than 50% water, I don't see any need to freeze it in water. It will freeze nicely and with an ice crust, on its own. The only result you achieve with water/ice packing is that it will take longer to freeze and more energy to maintain the extra mass of ice.

[bigfootford]

vermilye wrote:
I suggest you reset this brand of refrigerator monitor often. It does not give any indication that it has "hung" and is no longer updating the receiver. I returned one to the manufacturer & the replacement has the same problem. After 3-4 days, one of the channels stops updating. A reset fixes it, but only for a couple of days.

Interesting, If the transmitters battery gets low or out of range the receiver will error out on that channel and present an "E" in the display.
Never seen them just sit there, no update, just hung.

I have 3 sets that are original, about 4 years old. 1 in the camper, 1 in the home kitchen fridge and 1 in the shop fridge "beer n garden" storage. Not had a problem like you described. You do have to take care with the distance and wall of your fridge for signal penetration.

I purchased 2 sets for a friend. He struggled a bit with them until he found a good spot for the receiver and placement of the transmitters.

Another friend has 2 sets, no problems.

Jim

[vermilye]

bigfootford wrote:
I have found that the warmer the fridge section is, from leaving the door open and putting stuff in that is warm, and if the freezer is at 0-15 the fridge will be in cooling mode for the fridge section. Since the thermocouple is located on the fins in the fridge section.
As the fridge section cools the freezer section cools even further. Slow though.

I always have a bag of Ice that I keep in there for mass...If we are really loaded in the freezer section then I will remove it.

Fact or fiction, I do know this works for me..
I record my fridge temp 2 times a day while on the road and camping etc.
I have these in my home and camper. They work great. They record the lowest the fridge has been since the last time you have reset it. So I can see what the current temp is and where it was since I reset it in the morning after recording.



From:

http://www.partshelf.com/ci00985.html

Jim

I suggest you reset this brand of refrigerator monitor often. It does not give any indication that it has "hung" and is no longer updating the receiver. I returned one to the manufacturer & the replacement has the same problem. After 3-4 days, one of the channels stops updating. A reset fixes it, but only for a couple of days.

[bigfootford]

Almot wrote:
Jim, I like this thermometer but 6 batteries of mixed chemistry is some pain. AA and AAA alkaline are not very common in rechargeable form, and require a different charger. How often you have to replace the batteries?

I use the cheap Costco brand batteries.
They last well over a year. Even thought they say use the more expensive batteries I have not had any trouble with the Costco's.

I have several friends that are using this unit too... They all love this product. They use the Costco batteries too.

Rechargable for a nicad and even NMH is not good in this application. Just sitting nicads will go bad in a year or so. Also because the voltage range is quite different... 1.2vdc rechargables v/s 1.5 alkaline's you will be in the failure range of the units right away.

Jim

[pianotuna]

Hi Almot,

I use similar units and the batteries last 3 to 6 months. Even longer if LI are chosen.

[Almot]

Jim, I like this thermometer but 6 batteries of mixed chemistry is some pain. AA and AAA alkaline are not very common in rechargeable form, and require a different charger. How often you have to replace the batteries?

[Almot]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Dill, parsley, oregano, thyme, et al

You are spoiled, man. On a dry camp - which is pretty much any camp in Mexico 😉 - I'm carrying ground powder of those herbs.