3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[guy48065]

I want to add a power inlet box so I can connect the gen to my house in an outage. I found the kind I wanted at GenTran that has a 2-pole 30A breaker inside. For what I intend, this is more to disconnect the exposed input connector than yet another set of breakers. I don't plan to add an elaborate transfer switch setup--just wanted something one step better than running a cord through the basement window.

Anyway the real reason for this post is to let you know about the 25 foot 10 gauge cord they sell for $42.00. This was much cheaper than any comparable cord I had run across.
This link will take you to it:
http://tinyurl.com/cdvxg
I'm not connected in any way to GenTran but was just pleased they had the type power inlet box I was looking for (and cheap!), and the cord deal. Hope it helps someone...

[chadcarnes]

Professor95 or Mr. Wizard

Would it be possible to wire in a phase reversal switch for the PowerPro for the second winding similar to the ELIM?

I plan to re-wire my units as described by Mr. Wizard (Prof, your schematic really helped me understand it) for 110v only, but would like to be able to run 220v at some point (transfer switch hooked to my home for power outages).

I'm assuming that I'll have to wire my double breaker in parallel too?

Thanks!
Chad

[professor95]

Posted: 05/06/05 01:02pm
...so whatever happened to Professor95? Schools out & he's on the road with no internet access or what? No posts since 4/19...

Original posting 5/19/05

No, school is not out. We are on a four-quarter system. So, other than occasional breaks between quarters, our students go year round.

But, I have been camping! Since I only teach classes 3 days a week, I have Thursday – Sunday free to roam. Nancy and I have been on several short trips since March and have many more planned.

Recently, I have received numerous e-mails from folks wanting to know more about this “phase thing” in generators and 220 vs. 110 output and current loads. So, I am thinking… maybe I should write a FAQ in response to the questions and share this on the forum?

I’ll give it a shot. Hopefully, I can clear the water rather than make it even muddier.

“Phase” is relevant only to alternating current systems. Think of it this way: You probably know that when you hook two speakers up to an audio system it is important to have them “in phase”. If you do not have them in phase, one speaker will pull air while the other is pushing air. The result is part of the pressure that creates sound is lost.

If you are not into speakers, think of it like two folks trying to push a car out of a snow bank. If Jim pushes the front of the car while Bob pushes the back, we will cancel forces and the car will go nowhere. Now, if we can get both Bob and Jim to push at the same time from the same direction, chances are better that the car will come out of the snow bank. In the latter case, both Jim and Bob are “in phase” with each other.

Hold that thought a minute………

Click here and go to "photos" on my old sound abatement page, click on the “photos” block until you get to the figures on “Phasing” (sorry, my ISP would not allow a new page unless I deleted the old one, so I just added on). Look at Phasing figure 1. It is the basic construction of an alternator like the one found in most AC generator sets. As you can see, not only does the voltage vary according to the position of the armature (rotating coil of wire) but the polarity also changes half way through a complete rotation. In essence, the voltage alternates – thus the term alternating current.

The waveform you see in figure 1 is a single-phase sine wave just like the one produced by your generator.

Look at figure 2, you will see the filtered output from an AC generator producing 220 volts displayed on an oscilloscope. In case you are not familiar with an oscilloscope, just think of it as a TV cathode ray tube with a beam moving across the center of the tube from left to right. If I apply a positive voltage to the beam, it will go up. A negative voltage will make the beam go down. Notice in figure 2 that the sine wave displayed is very tall, actually going from the top to the bottom of the oscilloscope screen. This measurement was taken across the entire output winding of the AC generator and represents 220 volts. For the techies reading this: No, we are not going to discuss RMS, Peak, Peak to Peak or Average Voltage differences. Let’s just call it 220 volts and let it go at that!

An AC generator is nothing more than a huge coil of wire that we induce a voltage and current into by rotating a magnetic field around the coil windings. The rotating magnetic field produces a changing “flux” that, in simple terms, makes electricity. Most AC generators have two or more windings in series. By taping into the middle of these two windings we get half the total 220 volts. In this case, we have110 volts from each of the two halves.

Now look at figure 3 and you will see what the waveform looks like when I use two channels on the oscilloscope to look at both halves of the alternator windings at the same time. As you can see, we now have two waveforms; each is 1/2 as large as the original. Or, better stated, 1/2 of the voltage. But, if you look closely, you will also see that when the waveform on the top goes up, the one in the lower section goes down. These two waves are “out of phase” by 180 degrees. Figure 4 shows the same signals superimposed on top of one another. Note that when the pink wave is “pulling”, the green wave is “pushing”. What you are looking at is the same as the Jim and Bob analogy when they are pushing against each other. This is called a series-opposing circuit. If this is applied to an induction device, like a motor, it will not run.

But, (there is always a but…) What if I can reverse one of the two series windings so both are pushing at the same time and create a series-aiding circuit? Not only do I not have the two pushing against each other, I have twice as much power pushing in the same direction. You can see this waveform in figure 5.

Keep in mind that most AC generators that generate 220 volts route the “push” part of the wave to one half of a 3 or 4 slot twist lock outlet, and the “pull” part of the wave to the remaining half. Or, they may also use a standard duplex outlet (like you have in your house) that has the top 1/2 of the outlet separated from the bottom half by breaking out a small metal tab between the gold screws on the side of the outlet. Since the effort is not combined, we get only 1/2 the available force at a time to each half of the outlet. The generator does put out a total amount of power equal to both the push and pull, but they are independent of each other since they do not have the same phase relationship. This is OK for multiple devices on separate circuits, but is a bummer for a camper with a single 30 amp 110 volt supply cord unless we go inside the camper, split the circuits and run two power cords to the generator. My guess is not too many folks will use that approach.

A better method is to combine the two windings in the AC generator so they are series aiding (see figure 6). This is what the ELM3000 does and what Kevin and Mr. Wizard have been experimenting with on generators that do not include this feature. They are simply changing the polarity of one of the generator windings. If you follow Mr. Wizard’s recommendations to add fuses when you make the wire swaps, you will drastically reduce the possibility of harming your generator if you do something wrong. You can take the fuses out once you get everything wired right. Also, adding a DPDT switch as Kevin did makes it possible to switch from series-aiding to series-opposing so that you can still get a 220 volt output to run things like well pumps in power outages.

If you managed to read this far, hopefully you have found something in my ramblings that makes sense and explains why the phase relationship between the two 120 volt windings makes a difference. Better yet, I hope I have explained why you cannot just wire the two 110 outlets together as some have suggested.

Ironically, I just finished a similar lecture to my freshmen EET145 AC Theory class last week. I used the generator as the example - they caught on pretty good!

Edit added 5/23/05 - Just an update to avoid any confusion. These generators are all single phase. I am talking about the "phase relationship" between windings in my description, NOT implying there are multiple phases. If I confused anybody on this issue, I appologize.

[jimpcon]

chadcarnes wrote:
jimpcon

I'm no licensed electrician (so you smart guys correct me if I am wrong), but I'll try to explain how I plan to wire up my 120/240 4 prong NEMA L14-30 plug to a 30amp female plug.

THANKS!! It is great info.
Please let us know how you make out with wiring your setup.

I just have to add gas and oil to my genset and will report how well it works. I plan to just run off of the one side to start out with but I did order that pigtail you suggested.

BTW, we picked up our TT yesterday and we love it. My wife and i will try to make a small trip this weekend to get used to things. We have a trip planned for the 1st weekend in June to the NASCAR race in Dover.

THANKS again,
Jim

[rayscott]

Could anyone get me ideas on how to use my 50amp male RV plug with
these Chinese gensets??? Could I convert the 220 female plug on the
genset to a 50amp female plug??? I understand that I could not run
all devices with this genset.

Ray

[guy48065]

I wouldn't worry too much about unbalanced loads on the generator. When I tested mine I was pulling 2000W @ 98V. off one side and no load @ 120V on the other. Either this thing can output 4000W or the voltage regulator treats each winding separately--up to the maximum allowed by the wire gauge/magnetic performance.

[FrizzleFried]

Yes....especially full, these generators run around 110-120lbs. A bit heavy for sure...and what sort of sucks is that the wheel kit that comes with some (PowerWise 3500) won't fit through my coach door...and unfortunately, at this time, I have to store the gen inside the MH as it won't fit in my current generator box. Eventually I think I am going to build a box on to my buggy trailer to accomodate the generator as 90% of the time I am using the MH it's in conjunction with the buggy/trailer.

[Capt-Ron]

Well, I sold my PowerPro 3500 this morning. So I bought 2 on Monday, sold 1 that afternoon and the other this morning after I had a back injury relapse last night. It's just too much weight for me. Was going to hold on to it till the prices went up but one of the guys that is trying to find one came to see just exactly what he was trying to get. He wrote me a check on the spot. Now that I have the $$$ I think I'll buy a Brakesmart controller.

Thanks Ya'll,
Capt Ron

[chadcarnes]

Capt Ron

I'm sticking with my 30 amp pigtail (mainly because it is already ordered and in route), I'll report after I get it and connect to load. Glad to hear that that the one coil was able to start the AC, mine is 13.5K. The microwave concerns me a bit.

Chad

[Capt-Ron]

chadcarnes wrote:
I only have a 30 amp service. I think I see what you are saying, cut off the 50 amp plug of a 50A Male-30A Female dog bone. There should be a ground (green), common (white) and 2 hot wires (red and black). Wire them to the NEMA L14-30 and you are using both windings...

Thanks
Chad

Surely though the adapter drops one leg and thus I'm back to using on one leg.

That's probably true but then it's better than pulling 26-28 amps through a receptacle and plug designed for 20 amps. I had to read your post several times to make sure that I understood correctly and that you were not going shoot 240v to the 30 amp plug. It sounds like you have it right.

My adapter test was cut short by a thunderstorm before I could get any real data. The A/C was online along with several other devices with the voltage steady at 105v but I wasn't sure which leg was being measured. When I tried the microwave the voltage dropped to 96v and I discontinued the microwave in short order. The breaker on the generator didn't trip at this point. I decided after 10 minutes to pull the cover off the breaker box to check the voltage on each leg but the generator tripped offline when I turned on the bathroom lights. The storm began shorty after that so I put it all away for later.
I knew from the start that I would be dealing with an unbalanced load and now I'm looking at moving things around to even it out some. Once I do that then I'll run another test to see if the generator can handle the loads better. One thing that I was concerned about was that one winding would not be enough to start the A/C but there doesn't seem to be a problem with that. My A/C btw is 15k btu.

Capt Ron

[guy48065]

In the literature I had for the Champion they listed the noise level measured on all four sides of the generator. All 4 measurements were different with the loudest (76dB) being on the pull-rope side and the quietest (68dB) on the muffler side. Champion (unwisely) states just the worst-case measurement. They should be applauded for that but it does make them look noisy compared to the competition that's reporting only the best-case measurement. To my eye the engine & muffler are identical so should perform & sound the same.

[skram]

"Thanks for all the info on this site.I have been reading it since the beginng. Our local Schuck's has a 4450 peak wattage generator,for $299.00. Has any one heard of this one.Picture looks like it has 4 plugins.Looks like a 30,5o and two 15s.Also has a 6.5hp ohv engine. thanks for the info. "




That generator must be the Champion unit. I have one, as do several in this thread. The 4450 peak is generous, really its a 3000-3500 Watt unit. There seems to be 2 variants of this engine. The listed noise level of 76 is probably wrong, because mine seems quieter than that. Some of the unit specs state a 68 db level, which is probably correct. A few pages back is a very detailed description and use of this unit, including power output.

[chadcarnes]

I only have a 30 amp service. I think I see what you are saying, cut off the 50 amp plug of a 50A Male-30A Female dog bone. There should be a ground (green), common (white) and 2 hot wires (red and black). Wire them to the NEMA L14-30 and you are using both windings...

Thanks
Chad

Surely though the adapter drops one leg and thus I'm back to using on one leg.

[Capt-Ron]

chadcarnes,
Looking at the wiring diagram for my PowerPro 3500 I see that the 240v receptacle is wired across the two windings to produce the voltage as you describe. The 120v receptacle is only wired to one of the windings, so by using three wires at the 240v receptacle it appears that you acheive the same results as you would if you just used a 20/30amp dogbone plugged into the 120v receptacle. The problem with either method is that you are only using 1/2 of the generator windings. The more that you can spread the load inside that generator the better in my book.

The method that I proposed earlier is to wired the NEMA L14-30 plug using four wires to a 50amp receptacle that I can plug the 50amp shore power into.

If you only have a 30amp service then get a 50/30amp adapter, that way you are still using all of the generator's potential.

I plan to built my 240v adapter today and will post the test results.

Now I'm not a licensed electricial or engineer either, even though I spent 3 years in school for it...37 years ago.

Capt Ron

[chadcarnes]

jimpcon

I'm no licensed electrician (so you smart guys correct me if I am wrong), but I'll try to explain how I plan to wire up my 120/240 4 prong NEMA L14-30 plug to a 30amp female plug.

The PowerPro has 2 main coils that produce 3 leads. 1 lead is "common or neutral" to both coils and is therefore called a "common or neutral leg". The other 2 leads both carry 120v and therefore are 2 "hot legs". you get 240v across the 2 hot legs. One of these hot legs and the common leg are attached to the 20amp 3 prong plug on your unit and therefore produce 120v. The 2 hot legs, the common and a ground make up the four legs on your NEMA L14-30 plug.

With me? Here is a link to where you can get a 30 amp female pigtail that you can connect to the NEMA L14-30 plug that came with your unit.

http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-power-cords/13149.htm

Notice the picture is for a male, but you get the idea. just order "The Female 30A Pig tail (not shown) is PPL Motor Homes Stock Number 11791" if you are so inclined.

Now, how to wire the pigtail to the plug to get 120V. The pigtail should have 3 wires, a black, a green and a white. But you have 4 places to put the wires on the NEMA L14-30 plug? Exactly, you'll be leaving off one of the hot legs and therefore pulling 120v to you 30 amp female plug that you will plug your camper into. This is exactly the way the other plug is wired behind the panel.

Based on the schematics that came with the unit, here is how I intend to wire mine when it comes in. If you are looking at the NEMA L14-30 plug, the female receptacle that has an "L" shape is the ground; hook the green wire to the corresponding terminal. Directly across from the "L" shaped receptacle on the plug is where I'll place the common or white wire.

Now, here is where I'm still not sure where it is best to place the black or hot wire. If you are looking at the NEMA L14-30 plug with the "L" shaped receptacle at the bottom, there will be 2 open receptacles remaining; one on each the right and left. Placing the black in either of these will provide 120V and at the rated amperage if nothing is connected to the other plug.

I believe that if you place it in the open receptacle on the left (while still looking at the face of the plug) you'll be using main coil 2. Main coil 1 runs the other outlet. If you wanted you could run something then on both plugs at 120v, and you would be running each at 12.5 amps.

Again, I'm no licensed electrician, so please you smart guys tell me if I'm wrong! I do plan to consult a buddy too!

Good luck and welcome to camping jimpcon!